Stereo

[Naphta]

Please help with stereo and panning tips!

I tend to have ALL of my soundfiles in stereo before firing them into the sampler, even though most of em will probably be the same in both L and R channels... then I pan SOME stereo channels (vocals, strings etc.) on my desk.... but I'm confused by summat: a mono sound panned on the desk - is the effect the same as panning a stereo sound?

i.e. does it serve any purpose having my sounds in stereo if both L and R are the same?

Second, I'm trying to cut down the pans in order to keep the mix a bit clearer (following yr advice Macc-attack ): but what's a good guide to panning on the desk, in general?

Cheers 4 any help here..

[Naphta]

C'mon Macc, don't let me down here!

[subvert]

yo dude.

ive got to disagree with your comment (or macc's) about avoiding panning to keep the mix clear.

there are certain rules about what should not be panned (i.e below 250hz dont do it) but making full use of the stereo field is one of the main approaches to add clarity to mixdowns.

[Macc]

I didn't say what you think I said Scope, I said panning is good for clear mixes (in fact I am checking my new tune where I have done just that).

True say about sub 250Hz stereo action though, should have mentioned that

I'll be back Naphtaroonie, got work to do, but I'll be back.

What do you know/understand about the physics or nature of stereo, in the meantime?




EDIT: What I was saying, Scope is that having very-stereo stereo sounds run through stereo expanders and then through big arse stereo reverbs are not that healthy for your mix, it usually all disappears when collapsed to mono, and if cut to vinyl will probably make the needle leap of the record or some shit like that. My point was that getting mono sounds and panning those around the field is often better than just relying on wide stereo sounds.

[Naphta]

What do you know/understand about the physics or nature of stereo, in the meantime?

What do YOU think?

My point was that getting mono sounds and panning those around the field is often better than just relying on wide stereo sounds.

Velly intellesting...!

[subvert]

I didn't say what you think I said Scope, I said panning is good for clear mixes (in fact I am checking my new tune where I have done just that).

True say about sub 250Hz stereo action though, should have mentioned that

I'll be back Naphtaroonie, got work to do, but I'll be back.

What do you know/understand about the physics or nature of stereo, in the meantime?




EDIT: What I was saying, Scope is that having very-stereo stereo sounds run through stereo expanders and then through big arse stereo reverbs are not that healthy for your mix, it usually all disappears when collapsed to mono, and if cut to vinyl will probably make the needle leap of the record or some shit like that. My point was that getting mono sounds and panning those around the field is often better than just relying on wide stereo sounds.

As long as the stereo effects are above say 250 Hz then no needles will be jumping off, but yes, careless over use of stereo effects, and stereo enhancing effects can lead to less clarity in the mixdown, particularly when little thought is applied to the exact positioning and eq'ing of the effect returns.

[Naphta]

Scope: do you use a real-life desk? Or a makey-uppy (i.e. virtual)one?

And another thing: how much do you pan yr stereo fx return channels? Or does it vary from track to track?

[Logos]

Are there any rought rules of thumb for the placing of different kinds of sounds in the stereo field (e.g. strings etc)?

Obviously you do what the particular tune requires but...

[Naphta]

Are there any rought rules of thumb for the placing of different kinds of sounds in the stereo filed (e.g. strings etc)?

Obviously you do what the particular tune requires but...

This is what I'm asking!

[subvert]

Scope: do you use a real-life desk? Or a makey-uppy (i.e. virtual)one?

And another thing: how much do you pan yr stereo fx return channels? Or does it vary from track to track?

Actually Im just having an external 16-2 passive summing box built for me as we speak as I just sold my Spirit 328XD to Bobule.

Panning of individual tracks and FX returns varies completely from track to track depending on what I am trying to achieve.

Bear in mind that Im only writing hip hop at the moment though, not any d&b , so different approaches apply in many areas of mixing - hip hop particularly being focused on vocal placement, as well as the drums and the bass; although when it comes to panning, ultimately what you are trying to achieve - clear placement of parts in the stereo field - is the same for most genres.

[subvert]

are there any rought rules of thumb for the placing of different kinds of sounds in the stereo filed (e.g. strings etc)?

obviously you do what the particular tune requires but...

this is what i'm asking!

well for d&b kicks and snares should be pretty much bang in the middle, whereas with hats / cymbals or other percussive elements you can be more creative with stereo placement, although dont assume that elements like that have to stay in the same place throughout a composition - for example try moving the hats from slightly panned left to slightly panned for different sections of the track - panning fades from one position to another tend not to sounds so good for percussive elements although thats not a steadfast rule of thumb, just a guideline.

other elements allow you more creativity in stereo placement, and really will vary from track to track.

dont forget the importance of front to back placment of sounds here too (amplitude and ambience) - we are sculpting in a 3d space here, not just painting on a 2d canvas

[subvert]

for bass, either stick entirely to centre panned mono,

or be a bit more creative and mult you pass part into 2 - run one through a low pass filter set at say 300 hz, and the other through a hpf at the same frequency (or above if you need to create a little more space in your mix in the mid bass area) - you are then quite free to be creative with stereo effects on the hpf part of your bass

[Naphta]

dont forget the importance of front to back placment of sounds here too (amplitude and ambience) - we are sculpting in a 3d space here, not just painting on a 2d canvas

canyou elaborate on this? i >think< i know what you're driving at - the perception of the physicality of the sounds... but is this just another case of 'it can only be understood in practice'?

[Macc]

A combination of the spectral balance and ambience of a sound can push it to the 'front' of the sound stage.

Eg (not the best, but a simple one): A well-recorded normal clean and dry drum kit with no reverb, versus a lowpass filtered kit with bundles of reverb on it. The first sits up front and in your face, the other sits 'further away', even though the two may be equivalent in volume.

Not the best example, but you get the idea.

[Naphta]

A combination of the spectral balance and ambience of a sound can push it to the 'front' of the sound stage.

Eg (not the best, but a simple one): A well-recorded normal clean and dry drum kit with no reverb, versus a lowpass filtered kit with bundles of reverb on it. The first sits up front and in your face, the other sits 'further away', even though the two may be equivalent in volume.

Not the best example, but you get the idea.

Any tippage for moving stuff 'forward' / 'back'? Is it a case of the drier the sound, the closer it is..?

[markgabba]

Im learning so much from this part of the forum.. top stuff

[Macc]

think about it in real terms, it is a combination of the two factors we are discussing.

two examples to consider:

an instrument, say (as a random example ), a drum kit.

you are in your local school sports hall (which is massive and essentially non absorbent, ie all sound is reflected more or less equally, at least for the sake of this discussion).


now you set up the drums in the middle of the hall and stand right by them while some knob plays them. then you set them up at one end of the hall and stand at the other end while he plays them.

think about it, about the direct sound versus the reflections, both timing and volume. what would the differences be? the second setup would sound further away (cos it is!), but why? and you don't need a physics degree to figure it out.



other example: think about when you leave the speakers playing your tune (in your totally non-reverberant house/flat for the sake of this example) while you go out and make the tea......... how does it sound different when you are in the kitchen? why is that? it's cos the walls etc absorb a lot of the higher frequencies, so it sounds duller, and so further away (again, that's because it actually is further away, but there is stuff in between).






so, turning these two conclusions to our advantage, we can simulate these kinds of spaces by reproducing the effects using reverb and eq/filtering.

[subvert]

a combination of the spectral balance and ambience of a sound can push it to the 'front' of the sound stage.

eg (not the best, but a simple one): a well-recorded normal clean and dry drum kit with no reverb, versus a lowpass filtered kit with bundles of reverb on it. the first sits up front and in your face, the other sits 'further away', even though the two may be equivalent in volume.

not the best example, but you get the idea.

any tippage for moving stuff 'forward' / 'back'? is it a case of the drier the sound, the closer it is..?

in short yes - but thats not the only factor - give it a try and you'll see yourself - just follow the example macc gave above

[*]

any tippage for moving stuff 'forward' / 'back'? is it a case of the drier the sound, the closer it is..?

here's something i found on another forum some time ago :

here’s an oldie but a goodie. if you view space like this it can make a big difference in your success at mixing and producing.

when mixing in stereo, there are 5 planes of spatial illusion. level, panning, frequency, spatial perception, and contrast. these five planes are all used to create space in a mix.

front to back: (level)
level gives an element of a mix it's own space. compression on individual channels helps keep the level so that it doesn't disappear in the mix. a loud instrument will appear forward, or towards the front. a quiet instrument will appear to be back.

left to right: (panning)
panning allows you to give an element of the mix it's own space. for instance putting a guitar part hard right keeps it from washing out the vocal.

up and down: (frequency)
frequency is the use of eq to boost or cut frequencies that either muddy or clear the mix up. for instance 250hz-700hz are fairly muddy frequencies, and if you have too many instruments using this frequency range the mix could be muddy. everything in an arrangement or mix should have it's own unique fundamental frequency space.

far and near: (spatial perception)
spatial perception is the use of digital reverb, chambers, plates, delays, far mic placement, etc.. to create the illusion of space in the mix. an instrument with allot of reverb can sound like it is placed in a large hall. an instrument or a vocal with a long delay, can sound like it's in the alps. an instrument that's completely dry, will sound like it's in a small carpeted room, right next to you.

sparse to dense: (contrast)
arrangement is the use of muting, and altering the recorded arrangement to create space where it is needed to accent the more dense parts. the use of density to contrast sparse is great for creating the illusion of dynamics in a mix, within minimal dynamic range. the use of a limited dynamic range makes for better listening in more casual environments, where there tends to be external noise.

all 5 of these planes work together to create the illusion of space in a mix. one is no more important than any other in general, although one or two of the planes could prove to be more useful in a given mix.

not all are a requirement for a great mix either. for example, your mix should to be able to break down to mono, and still be a great mix.

mixerman

hi btw, my first post here.

[Macc]

a person who reads mixerman is always

[Statto]

hi btw, my first post here.

hello there *

[subvert]

any tippage for moving stuff 'forward' / 'back'? is it a case of the drier the sound, the closer it is..?

here's something i found on another forum some time ago :

here’s an oldie but a goodie. if you view space like this it can make a big difference in your success at mixing and producing.

when mixing in stereo, there are 5 planes of spatial illusion. level, panning, frequency, spatial perception, and contrast. these five planes are all used to create space in a mix.

front to back: (level)
level gives an element of a mix it's own space. compression on individual channels helps keep the level so that it doesn't disappear in the mix. a loud instrument will appear forward, or towards the front. a quiet instrument will appear to be back.

left to right: (panning)
panning allows you to give an element of the mix it's own space. for instance putting a guitar part hard right keeps it from washing out the vocal.

up and down: (frequency)
frequency is the use of eq to boost or cut frequencies that either muddy or clear the mix up. for instance 250hz-700hz are fairly muddy frequencies, and if you have too many instruments using this frequency range the mix could be muddy. everything in an arrangement or mix should have it's own unique fundamental frequency space.

far and near: (spatial perception)
spatial perception is the use of digital reverb, chambers, plates, delays, far mic placement, etc.. to create the illusion of space in the mix. an instrument with allot of reverb can sound like it is placed in a large hall. an instrument or a vocal with a long delay, can sound like it's in the alps. an instrument that's completely dry, will sound like it's in a small carpeted room, right next to you.

sparse to dense: (contrast)
arrangement is the use of muting, and altering the recorded arrangement to create space where it is needed to accent the more dense parts. the use of density to contrast sparse is great for creating the illusion of dynamics in a mix, within minimal dynamic range. the use of a limited dynamic range makes for better listening in more casual environments, where there tends to be external noise.

all 5 of these planes work together to create the illusion of space in a mix. one is no more important than any other in general, although one or two of the planes could prove to be more useful in a given mix.

not all are a requirement for a great mix either. for example, your mix should to be able to break down to mono, and still be a great mix.

mixerman

hi btw, my first post here.

mixerman knows his shiznit

and

[Logos]

hi btw, my first post here.