Teebee: "Ok..the REASON why....the clean up thread"

**Macc** · 10th March 2005

Originally Posted by Altered Ego

This board is full of threads how 'x' has fallen off and is crap by his '95 standards. I think its come down to the speed that people can roll out full software wobble crap. 100 tracks a week etc ...

That's utter bollocks, man :bluesmile: No offense like, lemme explain what I mean

1) It may well be true that you can knock a tune out in Reason in a few hours. Well, it IS true. That does not necessarily mean it is crap, or good, or anything. I made a tune in about 4 hours on Reason about 2 years ago, and I am still proud of it.

Just because (some) software allows you to do things slightly more quickly, it doesn't mean you have to. Sometimes, yes. But I have taken 4 months over tunes before.

Software does not logically = 'software wobble crap'. I certainly don't make wobble, although the crap bit may be true

It is MUCH more to do with the fact that a lack of EFFORT to make these things good, resulting in (and coupled with) the larger number of tunes that software admittedly allows you to make, that has resulted in (the key thing here) a lowering of standards amongst the people who ultimately decide what gets put out.

That and the fact that some people seem scared of making anything with brains behind it, for fear of being a chinstroker/beardstepper/edits cunt/whatever

Fuck that.

give reason to someone like equinox or breakage and i'm sure they would still come up with something good ..

Exactly.

**elhornet pendulum** · 10th March 2005

I think if anything, electronic music got BETTER when hardware took a back seat to software.
I respect the 'pioneers' who fucked about with early sequeners and battled away with hardware, but I don't envy them....and its not something I would personally have been too interested in.

It's logical to make things easier. You'd have to be a donkey to fight progression and preach the days of hardware and knowing your gear back to front, unless of course you're either an elitist and one of the few people with the money to buy software, or you fear change and have sat and watched software kids get better at producing than everyone else in a matter of months

That being said alot of what the Teebee says is true, but there always was a load of tripe getting pressed to vinyl, just back then not every shite label had a website/5 people on forums posting ads/student djs in 10 countries in their crew etc etc.

**elhornet pendulum** · 10th March 2005

Oh yeah and this board SO is full of people saying 'producer X has fallen off'! How could you possibly deny that after 15 page threads about how much you all hate Photek now

**scart ridge** · 10th March 2005

i think teebee's mistake is comparing today to 1996-1997. as far as i can tell, being a 22-year-old from canada who's had to learn about jungle history on the net, it's more like 1993 - the dark camp vs the happy campers, tons of tunes floating around that'll never come out, tons of new, small labels struggling to get their releases to market, tons of new artists popping up left and right who might not be here tomorrow. it means a lot of crap, but also the potential for some fucking mindblowing shit...a potential for diversity that's magnified by the fact that this is happening on a global scale, even if the total number of people listening to this music is about what it was in 1993

here's hoping

**Logos** · 10th March 2005

Hmm but how many producers actually make stuff on reason?

Most of the people I know who use software go as deep into making the music and technical side as those who use hardware.

Anyway there is just loads of shite music around, just like there was in 1995. However it seems like the big DJ's leadership and quality control standards have slipped.

**elhornet pendulum** · 10th March 2005

I think 96/7 are ALOT like now. You got your jumpup crew, and your darkside crew...and the liquid funk guys are now the new 'intelligent' guys of 96/7. Fuck, its almost exactly the same. Jumpup at raves, darker deeper stuff at places like Herbal / Technicality etc..

Maybe london wise anyway..

**elhornet pendulum** · 10th March 2005

Reason producers that I know of? Peshay, Evol Intent....ummm I dunno who esle.

**ken** · 10th March 2005

Originally Posted by elhornet pendulum

I think 96/7 are ALOT like now. You got your jumpup crew, and your darkside crew...and the liquid funk guys are now the new 'intelligent' guys of 96/7.

totally agree with that. you can draw many parallels to that time.

**scart ridge** · 10th March 2005

Originally Posted by elhornet pendulum

I think 96/7 are ALOT like now. You got your jumpup crew, and your darkside crew...and the liquid funk guys are now the new 'intelligent' guys of 96/7. Fuck, its almost exactly the same. Jumpup at raves, darker deeper stuff at places like Herbal / Technicality etc..

you know, you're right. and it's always been this way! it just seems like today, there's less people doing something that's truly their own thing, 'imagining possible futures' for drum and bass if you will...but the more new producers who come into this, the less and less that seems to be the case, whether we're talking music meant for raves or music meant for clubs or music made for headphones. that's why it seems like it's totally barking up the wrong tree to blame reason...it may indeed mean a lot more shit music in the short term, but once these folks get practice making music, SOME of them are bound to develop unique musical personalities (and probably cast off reason for more flexible software in the process

)

**Macc** · 10th March 2005

Originally Posted by elhornet pendulum

reason producers that i know of? peshay

that explains a lot

Originally Posted by elhornet pendulum

oh yeah and this board so is full of people saying 'producer x has fallen off'! how could you possibly deny that after 15 page threads about how much you all hate photek now

the reason that thread got to 15 pages is cos people disagreed, and there were big rows about it. it wasn't one person saying 'photek is shit' then 15 pages of people queuing up to say 'yeah!', eh.....

it's fair to say that there are a large number of people (myself included) who are aghast at photek etc's current output, but it isn't fair to say that we are all like that on here

it's logical to make things easier. you'd have to be a donkey to fight progression

and preach the days of hardware and knowing your gear back to front

oh, i dunno, horses for courses. fanu gets by, so do f+n (just two 'new' artists that i know use hardware offhand). they don't preach about it though, so yeah, preaching 'you kids are shit cos you use software' is bollocks.

**Statto** · 10th March 2005

personally i couldn't give a fart about any of this.

so there are loads of shit records about? so what's new? as pendulum says, there are always loads of shit records about.

so top djs, top producers, big labels are churning out shit? again, so what?! they're about as interesting to me as any other shit that i don't care about.

i'm not going to waste my time with any of these people. i'm not sending them any stuff to play out. i'm not going to send them any stuff to play out. if they want it they can come and ask. everyone else can fuck off.

**Macc** · 10th March 2005

Ooooh, get her! :handbagteef:

**beckett** · 10th March 2005

Don't worry lads...in a a few years time drum and bass will have gone the way of house music.....shops awash with releases 1% of them decent.

i can't wait.

:wahey:

**beckett** · 10th March 2005

Originally Posted by elhornet pendulum

Reason producers that I know of? Peshay, Evol Intent....ummm I dunno who esle.

nu:tone

london electricity do "pre production" using it aparently

same with zinc i think...(used to anyway)

who gives a shit anyway.....

**DJFracture** · 10th March 2005

i think he might be talking about quality control and average trax in regards to production. and i think that is the problem. production is a huge part of what makes a good tune, but music and ideas come first imo, thats whats missing.

ive said a million times i would rather hear an amazing piece of music that hasnt been produced well rather than a boring piece of music that has ultracrisp uberproduction.

**Naphta** · 10th March 2005

Talking about the absence of 'quality productions' in drum n bass is completely missing the point.

The music wasn't largely better 6 or 7 years ago because of superior production - it was better because the culture in the scene was more open-minded and explorative than it is now. Too many veterans of d+b have allowed their horizons to narrow and their imaginations to shrink; things that they would have done in the studio or in the mix ten years ago seem unimaginable to them now. In short, they have become more conservative, both through habit, and through a fear of alienating the audience brought up on d+b solely post Bad Company.

I'd sooner a 'badly' produced slice of genius off old Sub Base or Kemet or Ibiza than any number of 'amazingly produced' drone-tracks - where you can hear the producer is afraid to do anything even slightly unexpected.

**fee.nix-z** · 11th March 2005

Originally Posted by djfracture

ive said a million times i would rather hear an amazing piece of music that hasnt been produced well rather than a boring piece of music that has ultracrisp uberproduction.

**Wilshy** · 11th March 2005

What Fracture said, totally.

If one thing, that Teebee article has made me think a little more about where to take my sound as a producer. I've tried to shy away from presets within Reason but do use presets for other synths and such. But it's time to go back to basics and work on 'sounds' rather than on tunes using sounds that every man and dog has access too.

I will stick up for Reason here, ok the overall sound isn't amazing but it's every bit as flexible as the next piece of software if you have the IDEAS to go with the music. Using hardware, or A N other software package won't make your tunes better it's what comes from the mind that does. But bundling Reason with tons of presets does make for the hundreds of clone tunes with no ideas or passion in them.

**Macc** · 11th March 2005

Another big factor is the shift in balance between sampling and synthesising.

And the fact all these cocks like high cutoffs

**pez** · 11th March 2005

Originally Posted by naphta

i'd sooner a 'badly' produced slice of genius off old sub base or kemet or ibiza than any number of 'amazingly produced' drone-tracks - where you can hear the producer is afraid to do anything even slightly unexpected.

fucking too right, good production is all well and good, and nice to hear but if your ideas are shite, boring and musically conservative, then you aint going nowhere!

**Macc** · 11th March 2005

Musically conservative is okay.

Musically derivative is not.

Just had to point that out, even though it's all my humble opinion etc....

**dee bee one** · 11th March 2005

Originally Posted by Macc

Another big factor is the shift in balance between sampling and synthesising.

i am guessing you mean more towards synthesising?

**Macc** · 11th March 2005

also things like;

sub in bassline > mid in bassline
breaks > one shots
one break at a time (even when switching) > layering
not giving a toss if it was a bit muddy etc > fear of not having things perfick cos of the large amount of competition

i've kind of been guilty of the last one, but i don't reference other dnb for my tunes really - cos i don't listen to it much. i just want it to sound perfect to me, if you get me.

**alley cat** · 11th March 2005

i think if you can make a cool tune on a commodore 64 who cares? remember that track reborn by tech itch? he did that all on rebirth
and that tune rocks!!

but i am not the expert producer...so what i wanted to say is that
i do tend to agree with what teebee says, from a record label's point of view. i've been working for skunkrock for 5 1/2 years and things
have changed bigtime since we first started. there were very few
if any, international labels with uk distribution. now there's loads
but i think that is a good thing cuz the business is a lot more open
than it used to be. if this scene hadnt gone more global i wouldnt be
sitting here....

but with that openness and accessibility i do
think there has been some oversaturation. a lot of labels are struggling at the moment -- so i do think that says something about the state
of the scene.

i really dont know what can be done about the situation though. if someone wants to start a label and release tunes that is their choice-
and if they get distro then more power to them. i don't think anyone
has the right to dictate quality control of the music really...i guess
it's really up to the punters and the ppl actually buying the tunes.
they are the ones the ultimately decide what's gonna work and what
isnt? or is it the distros who decide? or the djs?

i certainly don't know the answer myself. it's kinda a catch 22 because
if the distribution company says they only wanna release big tunes,
thats cuz only big tunes sell well. but if only big tunes sell well, is
that because the djs are only playing big tunes? or are the record
buyers hearing their music on the pc not necessarily at the clubs
and making their decisions that way?

if someone can figure this out please let me know!