Macc - Mean streets

[markgabba]

(sorry for starting another mean streets thread but ........)

fuckin hell...since ive started listening to some jazz ive started to love this track even more and on a different level

i think personly that this even though being jazz improvised type stuff and therefor quite old in some ways it's also years ahead of it's time i would love to hear more of this fractured drum n bass in the future and look back on mean streets as the tune that started some slightly different shit in drum n bass music. thats how much im into this track and how original i think it is

it's some next level shit!!

[john doe]

agreed on all fronts
i love it too and thats why im putting it out

[dodz]

god dammit......still haven't heard this.



@ macc ftp dudeghuymanchavmaster!

[scart ridge]

i hate jazz, but i love this song

[markgabba]

[dodz]

i hate jazz, but i love this song

perhaps people like you are the primary demagraphic for maccs forrays into 'post-bebop-atonal-funky-swungle-pseudo-reconstructed-improv' stylee.....

i hate jazz

considering the things i do know about you, this continues to baffle me. you seem to have given a few things a chance but none of it speaks to you in any way.....or have you not heard much? just remembering our conversations about miles 'bitches brew' era and the like......

[markgabba]

i started listening to jazz first off cos the drums grabbed me and you can learn a lot about drums and patterns from listening to it. but then macc turned me onto things like money jungle with mingus killing it on the double bass which made me go and john coltrane etc and now im really diggin jazz the skill and technique of the musicians are out of this world

spend a wkend with macc and you'll be into jazz by the time you leave

[bhima]

Audio? Sounds intriguing.

[chris.innocence]

Audio? Sounds intriguing.

BAH! beat me to it ya bawbag!

[Form]

agreed on all fronts
i love it too and thats why im putting it out

[isa215]

Audio? Sounds intriguing.

i too am intrigued.

[scart ridge]

considering the things i DO know about you, this continues to baffle me. you seem to have given a few things a chance but none of it speaks to you in any way.....or have you not heard much?

my dad and my sister both love jazz, so i've had pretty consistent exposure to it over my lifetime; i've given it many chances, but it always bores me to death. it all comes down to this:

the skill and technique of the musicians are out of this world

good music is the product of divine accident, not skill or technique. beyond mere competence (necessary to get something out in the first place), the more skill and technique you have, the more your music is a reflection of your skill and technique, rather than an exploration into new vibes and new spirits and the things you don't know about music. at the end of the day, that's why i had to leave jungle behind; i started out approaching it from a technical angle, and i guess i was pretty good at it, but it was pretty much soulless. i didn't start FEELING music until i said 'everything i KNOW about music is wrong'!
.

[bhima]

audio? sounds intriguing.

i too am intrigued.

wow, you're also intrigued? that's intriguing.

[SETI]

brush and bass!




very nice tune.

[rise]

have yet to hear this

bobs on a roll these days

[dodz]

the skill and technique of the musicians are out of this world

good music is the product of divine accident, not skill or technique. beyond mere competence (necessary to get something out in the first place), the more skill and technique you have, the more your music is a reflection of your skill and technique, rather than an exploration into new vibes and new spirits and the things you don't know about music. at the end of the day, that's why i had to leave jungle behind; i started out approaching it from a technical angle, and i guess i was pretty good at it, but it was pretty much soulless. i didn't start FEELING music until i said 'everything i KNOW about music is wrong'!

in my experience, i'd have to almost wholly disagree with this statement......i can, do, and have seen the pitfalls of technique getting in the way of honest expression, but......(and this is one hell of a but)


i think that ultimately, anything that is considered "art" (bleghh...) must categorically first and foremost, be an honest communication of something. the facility one has with the actual mechanics of their craft is a periferal issue. so in that capacity, i sort of agree, or at least understand where you're coming from with that logic. but i beleive that there can, and IS a level of honest expression present in some music where there is a high level of technical comprehension at work as well.....it isn't a genre specific thing, and is present in any craft. ultimately though, technique itself should never be anything more than a means to communicate something that was in you to begin with. ie.) if you were to just focus on the technical issues and theoretical nomenclature of ANY music beyond the point that enables you to be a 'conductor' of your own musical energy, then you've already slipped off into the void of soul-less wank that can exist in ANY music, on ANY level.


for example :

i would consider people like tom waits, johnny cash, and willie nelson tremendous story-teller/singer/songwriter musicians. none of them (bar maybe tom waits to a degree) posess a tremendous amount of facility on their respective instruments (voices included), yet the honesty of their expression shines through like a laser beam, so the communication is really succesfull. (imo) when you A - B them with other people in singer/songwriter land, often times they are doing a projection or caricature of people like cash, or whoever....and it comes up short.

conversely, with regard to technique, sometimes you may wish to express something musically that you can't because your level of technique inhibits it. therefore, in order to attain that honesty, you must explore and develope the necessary tools in order to still be that 'conductor' of musicality. the same danger of falling into projection/imitation is present here.


the same applies to any craft.


cooking, writing, painting etc etc etc....


it always inevitably comes back to corollary between honest expression and the facility required by the individual to attain it, in my mind.

falling into the trap of prioritizing technique over musicality is present at all levels of creative expression. this is why i disagree with the quasi-absolutist nature of your initial statement there. seen?


so for you to write off the entire hisoricity of jazz as ENTIRELY one made up of musicians who are somehow chimerical with their endevours, then i say you're dead wrong.

sure, there ARE lots and lots of jazz musicians who don't hit it on the mark every time, and due to the nature of the jazz language (which requires a fair amount of theoretical understanding in order to navigate in any capacity......between musicians that is, not listeners) 'overplaying' is an expected by-product. but again, you can apply the same analogy to any genre under the sun and it wil be the same every time.


it's categorically unavoidable.

beyond mere competence (necessary to get something out in the first place)

so in your opinion, 'mere competence' (presumably a 'low' level of technique/theoretical comprehension) will always be sufficiant for ANY desired form of honest expression? i think not. it's contrary to very notion of creative spitit and sense of adventure that is REQUIRED to forge new forms. for some, yes, it can FULLY FULLY suffice. (read : i'm not being elitist here) for others, the music inside someone requires the learning of certain techniques if one is to get out what's brewing in there.




there is no REAL/ACTUAL improvisation. there will always be a variable lag of some kind, based in a system of referential reactionary process inate to humans. just as there's no TRULY VISCERAL experience where you hear/evaluate music in a 'pure' way, removed from enculturation.



......shit, sorry about the essay. i've been talking about this stuff and mulling it over a fair amount lately, and that's how i feel right now.

[isa215]

??? i just want to hear the music
macc where are you?!

[dodz]

??? i just want to hear the music
macc where are you?!

hold tight, the tune is coming out apparently!



again, sorry about the rambleambleambleamble......

[isa215]

??? i just want to hear the music
macc where are you?!

hold tight, the tune is coming out apparently!



again, sorry about the rambleambleambleamble......

no need to be sorry heh - just me being too lazy(ignorant) to actually read it.

[markgabba]

this thread is getting quite interesting now, good post dodz

and i thought it would go sideways by the 5th or so post

[markgabba]

talking of jazz music, as well as enjoying listening to it it has also really made me think outside of the box a lot more which is great! Ive got a hardcore track on the go at the mo with swinging hi hats, off the wall drums and various other instruments flying around but it kind of works (all be it in a fucked up kinda way )

[Macc]

Thanks Mark

And thanks John for having the balls to sign something so utterly un-dancefloor.

And thanks Dodz for boring everyone out of this thread (I read it fwiw).

[john doe]

And thanks John for having the balls to sign something so utterly un-dancefloor.

we have to cater to the cigar smoking, scotch drinkin massive too innit

[Macc]

Who, Jimmy Saville?

[john doe]

him and some dutch crackpots!