New producer: silly question

[Reflect]

Chop breaks at original speed, or time compress and then proceed

[subvert]

bothi in different situations.

generally for d&b you will be time compressing, as the originals are of a slower tempo. obviously this shortens the length of each hit. (this is generally good, as it keeps the space in between the beats, and prevents all the hits just running over each other and creating a mess)
sometimes you may want longer hits. for example a snare or a kick drum..... then using chopped breaks at their original tempo is useful.
when using longer hits, you can then fine tune the hits using the amp envelope...

but as usual there are no rules

[Macc]

i have to disagree with scope there, i am afraid (sorry man, i just do, i know you have been doing this for longer than me, but, well, i dunno what to say......... @ )

i strongly recommend doing it at the original tempo.

time stretching (and i don't give a fuck how good your time-stretch algorithm is) always leaves artefacts, it is inescapable. of course the less you time stretch it the less noticeable, but i don't like having anything in there that i don't want in there, whether i can hear it or not. yes, i am anal about this.

so what do you do? well, what i do is chop at the original tempo (in recycle) and load the slices into kontakt (i am a software man, btw).

now where scope says about the overhanging hits being a nightmare and contributing to the overall mess - that is a fair point, but there are lots and lots of ways around this.

the simplest, of course, is to restrict your polyphony to 1, so you won't ever get any overhanging hits.

but!

what if your break has a niiice open hi hat, but not an open hi hat with a kick at the same time? if you want 'ppssshhhht' (and who doesn't - as a drummer nothing beats kick and open hi hat ), you can't do it with polyphony set to one, as only one hit will play at a time.



hmmmmmmmmmmmmm....... tricky, eh?

so, the way to do it is this: set your polyphony to more than one (usually you won't need more than a polyphony of two), and set the release times of all your slices to zero. make sure the sustain level of each hit is at 1 (this won't chage the sustain of the actual original drum hit, it will just play at unity gain i.e. normal volume).

(little note: kontakt sets the release to zero and sustain to 1 by default, very handy for me)

now all you need to do is set each midi note in whatever prog you are using to be as long as you want. basically, the instant the midi note ends, the sound ends, so by programming using notes that don't overlap, you won't get any overlap between hits either

and if you need a hit to decay away as normal (say the last hit before a breakdown), then you just make the midi note long enough to get the whole decay. simple.

make sense? :scratch:

by the way, i never ever use the drum editor (i use cubase), as this plays one shots, where you have to set release times gretaer than zero. i use the key editor/zero release method because when i want the drums to stop now, i want them to stop fucking now. but using this method you can also make the hits decay if you want.


*looks at the essay he has written*

so, yeah, don't timestretch.



hope this helps, i am sure others will have their ways of doing it, but they are all wrong :bustedthumb

cheers,

[subvert]

expose:

"macc in tosh" shocker <--- see what i did there ? clever that is....



no what macc says i mostly agree with.

firstly yes - generally on beats, time stretching is bad.
however, using a good time compression algorithm will not leave you with the same artifacts that time stretching will.

secondly, there are various ways to achieve time compression.
the best way for example (audibly) in my opinion is to use the beat slice thing within cakewalk (even if you dont use cakewalk to do your sequencing). it sounds great, and to my knowledge uses a combination of both time compression, and slicing with amp envelope adjustment.

as macc says, there are various ways around the problem of overhanging notes - i just gave one example of a way around it that sounds natural.
sometimes of course overhanging notes are desirable.
you might want a very long 'pushing' snare for example

my point is that i dont think you can say that you definitely should not do anything.
i stand firmly by my guns, and say that there are no rules.
different tunes will be suited to different approaches......this part of the production process is not exempt from that imho....

[Macc]

at the top bit - [alan] 'very good. very clever' [/alan]



yes, of course you must find out how you like to do it, as verily doth sayeth.

but i have to pick him up on one thing - if you are going to chop a beat anyway, why bother time compressing (sorry, i always say timestretch, even if i mean time compress) it? sure, you will get more of the tail of the hits in, but that will sound less natural imho.

chopping with no time comp is more like the drummer simply playing faster than the other method.

still, anyway, horses for their own particular and specialised courses...........

good discussion though, eh!

[subvert]

why ? because it sounds different.....i agree - simply chopping gives that impression of a drummer playing fast.
but....it doesnt always sound BETTER than shortening the hits first....

limit yourself not.....

:yoda:

then again macc tunes are the shit, and i dont even have a studio at the mo :bluewail:

[Ag3nT[]0raNg3]

hmm indeed a good discussion.

i like Maccs points.

[Stacks]

Sounds less natural? maybe - but so what? Like scope says it sounds different. It sounds more 'Jungly'

Stacks

[Statto]

Time stretching is bad.

I played Roni Size - Time Stretch this morning and it was pretty damn good

[subvert]

time stretching is bad.

i played roni size - time stretch this morning and it was pretty damn good

oi dont quote me out of context

[Statto]

oi dont quote me out of context

:winkwink:

ps please move this thread into this forum...
http://www.subvertcentral.com/forum/...pic.php?t=6551

[Düffah]

Maybe John Doe can?

[subvert]

done

[Reflect]

Thank you Scope and Macc for your replies, they're much appreciated!

I'm currently doing all my mumbo jumbo on my 800 Mhz OSX IMac with Pro Tools LE 6.1 and an Mbox (no sampler although I should get one before too long) and they run great together. It's just so damn easy to take a break and squeeze it into my tempo (and it does sound good), so if I wasn't planning on having many or any drum edits I could make a tune lickety-spit, but I figure that if I'll be chopping up my hits anyway......
I did try taking the original hits and arranging them exactly how they were in the sped up break and of course I had overlapping issues so I'll try to take your advice Macc. Does anybody know how to do this in Pro Tools (polyphony and sustain) or should I be using a program that can handle midi better such as Logic or Cubase?

I suppose I'll try chopping both ways and compare the sounds!

Macc: You're obviously a real good dude taking your time to give me in-depth answers to my question. If you weren't on the other side of the world I'd buy you a beer, but I'll have to settle for wishing you the best of luck in your endeavors!

Long live the Streetbeats Forum!

eace:

[john doe]

Maybe John Doe can?

i dinna have the powah sir

[Statto]

Maybe John Doe can?

i dinna have the powah sir

you did when this thread was in the Beat Ranch though

[Düffah]

Exactamondo.

[Macc]

sounds less natural? maybe - but so what? like scope says it sounds different. it sounds more 'jungly'

stacks

yeah, but i ain't a 'junglist', mate, i am a drummer......... :bluesmile: i only started using a computer to chop breaks because i can't record..........

so it is only natural that i want things to sound as natural as possible, at least when i aint distort-o-flange-o-stretch-o-twissssssting them

hope this makes my point of view clearer, stacks.

@reflect: good luck mate. i ain't that good a bloke, just a massive geek . pm me anytime for a really boring discussion on any topic you wish, my friend

and @ scope - i didn't know you liked my tunes :blush: nice one!

[subvert]

And @ Scope - I didn't know you liked my tunes :blush: Nice one!

silly boy

[Düffah]

I ain't that good a bloke

It's true, he's a nimrod.

:fuckyoubuddy:

[SETI]

back on topic, sometimes i like to keep the drum slices at original time, and reduce the decay on the individual samples for tighter hits (provided your sampler has envelope controls)... with a little 'verb in the drum channels, then you have natural but tight sounding drums with less 'artifacts'

[subvert]

back on topic, sometimes i like to keep the drum slices at original time, and reduce the decay on the individual samples for tighter hits (provided your sampler has envelope controls)... with a little 'verb in the drum channels, then you have natural but tight sounding drums with less 'artifacts'

thats what I said

[john doe]

Maybe John Doe can?

i dinna have the powah sir

you did when this thread was in the Beat Ranch though

oops