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Thread Contributor: +ToRMeNT+[Theory & Premise] "Progressive House" is Entirely Post-Punk

#1
I might be listening to PIL as I post.. 

I'm sure the premise has been referenced before, I mean, imo, Andy Weatherall in his entire existence is more than a prime example on the topic. 

It is really all about the dub right? 





Chin
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#2
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#3
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#4
From wiki.. they leave out the post-punk *DUB* root though of UK progressive house, which is my (indulgent) premise.



"..Etymology -

In the context of popular music the word "progressive" was first used widely in the 1970s to differentiate experimental forms of rock music from mainstream styles. Such music attempted to explore alternate approaches to rock music production.[2] Some acts also attempted to elevate the aesthetic values of rock music by incorporating features associated with classical instrumental music. This led to a style of music called progressive rock, which has been described as "the most self-consciously arty branch of rock."[3]

In disco music, and later house music, a similar desire to separate more exploratory styles from standard approaches[not in citation given] saw DJs and producers adopting the word "progressive" to make a distinction. According to the DJ and producer Carl Craig, the term "progressive" was used in Detroit in the early 1980s in reference to Italo disco.[4] The music was dubbed "progressive" because it drew upon the influence of Giorgio Moroder's Euro disco rather than the disco inspired by the symphonic sound of Philadelphia soul.[4] In Detroit, prior to the emergence of techno, artists like Alexander Robotnick, Klein + M.B.O. and Capricorn filled a vacancy left after disco's demise in America.[4][5] In the late 1980s, UK music journalist Simon Reynolds introduced the term "progressive dance" to describe album oriented acts such as 808 State, The Orb, Bomb the Bass and The Shamen. Between 1990 and 1992, the term "progressive" referred to the short-form buzz word for the house music subgenre "progressive house".[6]

History

Progressive house emerged after the first wave of house music.[7] The roots of progressive house can be traced back to the early 1990s rave and club scenes in the United Kingdom.[8] In 1992, Mixmag described it at the time as a "new breed of hard but tuneful, banging but thoughtful, uplifting and trancey British house."[6] A combination of US house, UK house, Italian house, German house, and techno largely influenced one another during this era.[6] The term was used mainly as a marketing label to differentiate new rave house from traditional American house.[6] Progressive house was a departure from the Chicago acid house sound.[7] The buzz word emerged from the rave scene around 1990 to 1992, describing a new sound of house that broke away from its American roots.[6] Progressive house was viewed by some as anti-rave as its popularity rose in English clubs while breakbeat hardcore flourished at raves.[9] According to DJ Dave Seaman, the sound faced a backlash in the early 1990s because “it had gone the same way as progressive rock before it. Pompous, po-faced and full of its own self importance. But basically was really quite boring."[8]The label progressive house was often used interchangeably with trance in the early years.[6]

AllMusic says that progressive house "led the increasingly mainstream-sounding house from the charts back to the dance floors".[10].. "
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#5

Disco Not Disco: Post Punk, Electro & Leftfield Disco Classics - 1974-1986 (VA - Compliation)

-Vivien Goldman Launderette 3:44
–Delta 5 Mind Your Own Business 3:10
–Shriekback My Spine Is The Bassline (12" Edit) 3:59
–Konk Your Life 7:22
–Isotope (2) Crunch Cake 3:55
–James White & The Blacks Contort Yourself (August Darnell Remix) 6:13
–Quando Quango Love Tempo (Remix) 7:52
–Yellow Magic Orchestra Seoul Music 4:47
–Material Don't Lose Control 4:16
–Kazino Binary 3:53
–Liaisons Dangereuses Los Niños Del Parque (12" Mix) 5:01
–A Number Of Names Sharevari (Instrumental) 6:14
–Six Sed Red Beat 'Em Right 6:18
–Maximum Joy Silent Street / Silent Dub 7:42
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#6
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#7
Underworld were basically later day Frankie Goes to Hollywood in places.

I've always thought that.

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#8
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#9
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#10
One note baselines, adjourned with synthetic fizz racket.
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#11
(12th May 2017, 20:09)+ToRMeNT+ Wrote: [Theory & Premise] "Progressive House" is Entirely Post-Punk

For progressive house to be post punk...
1. House would have to have had the "I can do that" attitude and energy of punk. Which it didn't.
2. Progressive house would have to be far more inventive than it is.

But I've posited a similar theory before: that early drum'n'bass is the equivalent of post-punk, arising out of old school hardcore. Old school certainly has the punk attitude and energy; and mid 90s drum'n'bass was a time of massive try-anything "post-punk" invention.

Which I guess makes contemporary drum'n'bass the equivalent of indie rock; i.e. much the same as it was 20 years ago. You might like an indie band or two, but mostly it's just generic trash with little merit or talent.

Kingstatto
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#12
^^ percussive, "tribal" flourishes, musicality, and sometimes melody as opposed to more minimal (expected) electronic sounds.

I got into house & techno specifically largely from early 90's progressive house. As mentioned, it really was all about the dub.. imo. Smile of course that trance thing came a bit later. I was hearing local, NA early 90's deep house via Strictly Rhythm and such, but maybe the synthetic elements of progressive house made things sound more alien.. or fantasy like? Deep house, back to basics stuff is pretty earthy. Where as via progressive house moving into early (original) trance, you heard of stuff like Harthouse, Eye Q Records, and Eat Static, ya know? Eat Static had graphics of UFO's as the album art.. crazy! It wasn't about.. Chicago street scenes for graphics. I never thought of it like that. hmm..

Presentation.. escapism.

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#13
(13th May 2017, 09:27)Statto Wrote:
(12th May 2017, 20:09)+ToRMeNT+ Wrote: [Theory & Premise] "Progressive House" is Entirely Post-Punk

For progressive house to be post punk...
1. House would have to have had the "I can do that" attitude and energy of punk. Which it didn't.
2. Progressive house would have to be far more inventive than it is.

But I've posited a similar theory before: that early drum'n'bass is the equivalent of post-punk, arising out of old school hardcore. Old school certainly has the punk attitude and energy; and mid 90s drum'n'bass was a time of massive try-anything "post-punk" invention.

Which I guess makes contemporary drum'n'bass the equivalent of indie rock; i.e. much the same as it was 20 years ago. You might like an indie band or two, but mostly it's just generic trash with little merit or talent.


hmm..  I've heard in the past where Mick Jones would say ideas alluding to  "...acid house is/was the new punk rock" during Big Audio Dynamite's earlier hey day, also referencing the DIY element of acid house.  Anybody with gear can bang out a tune.. which still persists of course.  For me, maybe the dissection would be the "diy" element to dub?..if there could be a diy element back then, considering dub needed technology, mixing boards, and gear to have it happen.  Perhaps maybe not as accessible?  I'll think about that.. heh.  Would you agree?
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#14
(13th May 2017, 09:29)+ToRMeNT+ Wrote: ^^ percussive, "tribal" flourishes, musicality, and sometimes melody as opposed to more minimal (expected) electronic sounds.

There might be some parallels in the sound, but percussive/tribal was just one area of post punk; and musicality and melody certainly aren't characteristic. What post punk was about was invention... Let's do this because why not.

I guess you could make the case for house being back-to-basics punk disco. But a more apt analogy in that case would be 80s hardcore punk, with prog house as post-hardcore. It really isn't inventive enough to stand up to late 70s/early 80s post punk (which is the music I grew up with Wink).
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#15
Or .. it would be asking.. IS DUB A BASS LINE, or a mere studio effect??

anybody can play a bass line, but studios, tape machines & mixing board gear were a luxury in the early days.. not so "diy"?  


[Image: chin.gif]
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#16
(13th May 2017, 09:52)Statto Wrote:
(13th May 2017, 09:29)+ToRMeNT+ Wrote: ^^ percussive, "tribal" flourishes, musicality, and sometimes melody as opposed to more minimal (expected) electronic sounds.

There might be some parallels in the sound, but percussive/tribal was just one area of post punk; and musicality and melody certainly aren't characteristic. What post punk was about was invention... Let's do this because why not.

I guess you could make the case for house being back-to-basics punk disco. But a more apt analogy in that case would be 80s hardcore punk, with prog house as post-hardcore. It really isn't inventive enough to stand up to late 70s/early 80s post punk (which is the music I grew up with Wink).


^^ i get your point.  very much so.    innovation, and use of "elements" at hand is important. I get that.   Cheers
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#17
(13th May 2017, 09:39)+ToRMeNT+ Wrote: hmm..  I've heard in the past where Mick Jones would say ideas alluding to  "...acid house is/was the new punk rock" during Big Audio Dynamite's earlier hey day, also referencing the DIY element of acid house.  Anybody with gear can bang out a tune.. which still persists of course.  For me, maybe the dissection would be the "diy" element to dub?..if there could be a diy element back then, considering dub needed technology, mixing boards, and gear to have it happen.  Perhaps maybe not as accessible?  I'll think about that.. heh.  Would you agree?

Acid house as punk, no, I don't think so. It has the energy but not the rip it up and start again attitude. I think old school hardcore is a better fit... "crap music and we don't give a shit" Punk

A dub continuum is something else. Simon Reynolds has written about that I think. Which includes PiL and the Slits, On-U Sound post punk, and latterly dubstep and stuff.
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#18
I have this occasional fascination with Andrew Weatherall. He's like a folk lore character to me, smoking, making tunes.. and lino art apparently heh.

I'd buy Weatherall dinner, smokes, .. pipe weed, whatever, pay for drinks, just to hear him talk music. ha. SOOO much comes out of his innovation, his ability to express music.

I don't usually gush. lol

Sabres of Paradise. Honestly some of the first dance tunes I bought before I started thoroughly considered actually djing. I was buying the vinyl just to listen too. Musicality, that stuff was crazy. Completely different to NA house & techno in many places. Sabres was like dance music presented in instrumental song structure - SOOO not a techno thing. Maybe that's the difference of a producer who may come from a background of playing in rock bands, or rock environments, vs.. bedroom fiddling on the sequencer & such?

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#19
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#20
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#21
Ultimately I find, audience wise and music maker wise, progressive house, or progressive anything for that matter, is not running parallel to post punk, because stating something is progressive is an oxymoron. The only way of playing that philosophical paradox into continuum ideology is to say something like "Well, post punk has always been about fighting for what's right". But these terms are incongruous - the progressive of today is a fashionista fad, a hipster dogma, a trying to fit the product into the mainstream while saying "fuck you" at the same time.

Post punk, and rock music before, for that matter, never had to do any of that.

Interesting theory though, and rock music begets punk like house music begets rave nowadays, so everything becomes all in, equilaterally valid, touche.
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#22
(13th May 2017, 13:24)Muttley Wrote: .. the progressive of today is a fashionista fad, a hipster dogma, a trying to fit the product into the mainstream while saying "fuck you" at the same time.

Post punk, and rock music before, for that matter, never had to do any of that.

Interesting theory though, and rock music begets punk like house music begets rave nowadays, so everything becomes all in, equilaterally valid, touche.

 
^^ i get your point as well, about trying to fit the product into the mainstream but posturing the intent to appear subversive if you will. In the same way as where the wiki entry states "..  The buzz word emerged from the rave scene around 1990 to 1992, describing a new sound of house that broke away from its American roots.[6]Progressive house was viewed by some as anti-rave as its popularity rose in English clubs while breakbeat hardcore flourished at raves.[9]"



In response to that wiki quote ^^, I think as as far as alternative (..another product catch phrase..heh) dance clubs are concerned, particularly in NA, late 80's into the early 90's, where you were hearing post-punk remixes, then new beat, industrial & ebm over the years, and finally eventually acid house tunes & early techno of a very specific bpm  (definitely NOT hardcore techno or breakbeat..) that you could mix with ebm & such , i think the effect really was of an evolving post-punk audience, older kids still clubbing in the late 80's who grew up on actual 80's post-punk, commercial 80's dance musics and the like. Eventually it would make sense to eventually hear Underworld, or more specific progressive house  tunes thrown in the mix as the 90's emerged.  In the UK, seemingly there was an "indie club" circuit, playing indie dance musics, crossing over into house, etc. In NA, I don't think we really had that. It was either.. post-punk , industrial ebm new beat nites, that may have played the odd.. Stone Roses or Primal Scream tune, and such. It was more dark music vibes from my local scenes as I recall.  I think out of that, THEN there was local actual house music nites starting to emerge. Certainly in cities & areas where there wasn't a large African American / Canadian community, most definitely. One of the earliest hiphop party & club dj's in my area was also THEE first deep house dj locally, where he'd have his deep house club nite during the week, but would also organize and play diy community hall hiphop dance nites, where he WOULDN'T play straight up house - * HIP house * maybe, but not full on vocal house or what have you. He kept his audiences separate for some reason. Interesting thinking back to that.

From my local scene, the early hardcore rave dj promoter was also an avid deep house head, and would put out both gabber hard acid, then a bit later, trance, and deep / progressive house tapes. So the direction locally was coming from the same person, just different extremes of the beats. You'd hear the same mixed bag on the earliest local dance music radio shows too - they'd play Reinforced tunes next to early Aphex Twin, Plus 8 stuff, deep house, gabber and ambient tunes.  And one of the earliest dj records shops in my area as I've mentioned elsewhere, was a metal & punk record shop from the 80's that into the early 90's, stocked hiphop, reggae/dancehall, industrial ebm 12"s, then house & early techno releases..all in the same shop. You'd see early hiphop & dancehall reggae dj's buying records next to people buying Anthrax, thrash metal or hardcore punk gig tickets. That was the shop I bought some of my first dance music 12"s from.  Smile    So perhaps my perspective on a post-punk diaspora is a bit skewed in my premise here, heh. 

Indulgent, yes. very much so.   Wink   It really is all about the bass tho...
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#23
Fact Mag & Joe Muggs did "Andrew Weatherall's 30 Best Remixes" list a couple years back.

Some incredible choices if you haven't checked it out. http://www.factmag.com/2014/09/27/andrew...t-remixes/

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#24
Guerilla Records, "dub house disco" compilations and such.

I was all over it.

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#25
Radioactive man - FedEx to munchen  (weatherall remix) Homerdrool
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