THIS SO CALLED FORMULA....

been reading a lot of your posts on the previous threads (especially the albums one) and you all seem to be going on about dreaded "the formula"

my question is what would you have instead of this formula of intro, breakdown, drop, breakdown, drop?

i know it can get a bit tedious sometimes, but what can you do? dj's (in clubs, on the radio and at home) still have to be able to mix these tunes, and everybody know what a wanker it can be to mix tunes in where the bass is in from the 1st bar!!!

so.... how do we break the formula, while keeping it dj friendly?



p.s.. i KNOW not all drum and bass is for djing and can be just for listening, but like i said most people who buy records ARE dj'S. I DON'T LIKE THAT, BUT IT'S TRUE

how to break the formula. Make more tunes like the 9th Hand he he

DnB is made like that cos its club music. DnB that used to be made to listen to at home is almost dead. Listen to old Metalheadz tunes, old Matrix, Optical, Krust, Dillinja, any fucking artist and they used to make tunes that were well deep and not 'dancefloor' and they used to sell. Distributors and labels avoid 'experimental' as it wont sell. Ppl dont buy deep tunes on vinyl anymore (or not enough ppl). Non-formulaic tunes are made but as they are 'different' DJs wont play them and consequently ppl wont buy them. Forums like this are striving to change this thinking but its definitely and uphill struggle, for now.

hm dunno.. i think i saw Photek spin tunes that had a different formula... and he mixed them like house tunes... there wasnt a real drop and breakdown.. just going on and on as far as i can tell

I "listen" to more dnb than actually "dance" to it....but i know what your saying....

There is no doubt that while in a club trying to mix in the next record that a more standard formula tune is easier to mix and most crowds seem to go off to these tunes......but this is not advancing or progressing the scene at all....we do need "different" tunes, non formulaic ones....
there are people on SC who are making these tunes but outside of here perhaps they are not getting heard and people dont know about them....

also perhaps if djs were not under pressure to seamlessly mix for 60-90 mins when doing a set then perhaps there would be more room to fit in non standard tunes, tunes in a different signature pattern, tunes at a slower tempo etc....but tunes that still were bascially dnb but not confined to the "rules" ................
at most "big" event how many djs have actually faded the last tune out and dropped something different in the middle/end of a set?????
it should also be about djs educating as well as dancing......

technicality is probably the only club where, djs will try this and where the people will appreciate this!!!


With regard to future vinyl releases Why not release a more "standard" tune on one side and a "experimental" dnb tune on the other, whether it be atmospheric/dub/jazz/funk/techno in its influence.......

DnB that used to be made to listen to at home is almost dead.

I disagree - there`s plenty of good tunes out there - for every taste. I don`t go to parties anymore (well, except when I`m playing ), but I still listen to dnb (and not only the oldies-goldies) at home - A LOT.

another ten years will pass and people will talk how dnb was better back in the 2005.
sure, there are a lot of crappy tunes, but you can always find some gems - i`m quite sure there are a lot of new talanted artists we`re even not aware yet and overall I think this year has been VERY good for dnb so far - so many (good) albums, new sounds - it's just all in the process

It's the DJs job to adapt to the tune he's mixing. If a DJ won't play a tune he thinks is good just because it's hard to get it in the mix, then he's a shit DJ. If a tune is completely unmixable but sounds good, play it from the top.. not the end of the world is it?

It's the DJs job to adapt to the tune he's mixing. If a DJ won't play a tune he thinks is good just because it's hard to get it in the mix, then he's a shit DJ. If a tune is completely unmixable but sounds good, play it from the top.. not the end of the world is it?

Half true.

i would say most DJs, including me (and i dont think im shit? am i?), have records that they will tend not to play becasue they may be hard to mix, not just in a beatmatch way, but in a vibe way, or even a dynamics way.

the crowd also has a lot to do with it... you know, you can play an amazing mash up set of different tempos, vibes, dyanamics and themes, but if the crowd aint getting it... you probably wont get booked there again. you can try and be all "fuck them" and force them to understand what you're doing.. but if they dont.. you dont get paid. Sad, but true...

my feelings these days... its D+B, live with it.

i would say most djs, including me (and i dont think im shit? am i?)

of course not. every time i've seen you at technicality it's been all the way... but what you're talking about is kind of different. take a track like soundwall vip - has a pretty unmixable, beatless intro, but i've still heard it played loads of times at technicality because it tears the place apart. i've heard matrix - convoy at technicality, and at carbon i think, and that's challenging to make sound good, just because it has a really different vibe. djs at these nights clearly make the kind of effort you'd never see at ram or one nation.

funny you should bring this up as i've just finished the 23rd minute of a track of mine which lacks any structure. it is mixable though.

look, "that" typical dnb formula has always been there. there's always a formula but it's changed slightly over time.

in 1995, the structure was pretty much the same as today but little things are different like the intros were half the time to accomodate for "quick mixing" giving it more of an energetic feel, i guess.

all the good looking stuff usually had nice atmospherics for a while before some hi hat started coming in where people can mix in the tune. they didnt really have a drop because the bass just bounced in out of nowhere and the tunes just rolled.

what would you have instead of this formula of intro, breakdown, drop, breakdown, drop?

the answer is that for a 7 minute tune, or whatever, there aren't infinite possiblilities for structure so there's always going to be formulas. i'd just suggest that you try and make music that pleases you. i cant tell you how to do that but, what i can say, is this: when making a tune, dont be conscious of the structure, just do what sounds right. if you dont feel like doing a breakdown, dont do it. only later, when listening back, mess withe the arrangement and see what sounds good.

if you take any pop track, they do all the artistic/melodic/lyrical business first and then they work out which instruments work well together (to avoid overlapping frequencies etc...) and then, they work out structure (even though pop isn't very dynamic)

0=0 has started doing all kinds of wierd stuff - listen to "abolished" (you have that, right?) - theres about 3/4 breakdowns/drops. it's still mixable though, isn't it?

so the answer to your question is: get the right balance of what you think sounds natural/free and what is mixable.

dj's (in clubs, on the radio and at home) still have to be able to mix these tunes

like myself and a few other people brought up in the other thread, its not all about djs if you're thinking about doing a cd version of an album or whatever because there are other audiences out there.

i know it can get a bit tedious sometimes

what? you mean making tunes to a definate structure is tedious? well, i thought music was supposed to be a fun and personal thing; a matter of opinion so why get vexed about how you "have to" make music?

so.... how do we break the formula, while keeping it dj friendly?

ok, look at how the breaks side of drum n bass is appearing more in the scene these days and look at how high the tempo is. these are scene-changing factors and didnt appear there overnight. like with most things in the scene, you just have to slowly introduce different concepts and let people get used to it in their own time.

most people who buy records are dj's

yes, and most people who buy cds are listeners! so when you release your album, do a cd version with some extra tracks on (with some cheesy catchphrase like "limited edition") which are a bit more on the "experimental" side if you're trying to change things.

and a final word, most breakdowns in clubs stop the continuity of the energy if you're brocking out and i often find that i wish they weren't there. however, if they were more interesting, i wouldn't think that at all.

another thing.... what if i like that structure?????????

another thing.... what if i like that structure?????????

then you like it simple as that. i think that the structure will always be around; just like a lot of things coughcoughamencoughcough

like i said before... tune is tune.

Yep. If it sounds good, that is more important to me than how hard it is to mix.

thats why a lot of tunes are predictable these days; they're MADE to be mixed. It depends WHY you make music. If you make it to be mixed, it's going to be a bit obvious but if you make it because you want to have fun and not give a shit, it usually ends up sounding fresh/new/better.

One more thing, I once played Pieter K - "All things" which has a massive breakdown and not really any drop at the end (as the drums fade in) but it's really nice and interesting and people were well in to it.

But to your average "raver", they want a DROP every 5 seconds so sometimes it can be hard to judge...

there is no doubt that while in a club trying to mix in the next record that a more standard formula tune is easier to mix and most crowds seem to go off to these tunes......but this is not advancing or progressing the scene at all....we do need "different" tunes, non formulaic ones....

not just new tunes.. also new formats for presentation... and the construction of new cultural references. i.e. encouraging representations of tribalism... fostering notions of belonging and identification through musical allegiance.

you get me?

at most "big" event how many djs have actually faded the last tune out and dropped something different in the middle/end of a set?????

hehe, aye. i've always done that since day 1.. clears the decks nicely for what is to come! :d nafftip no.666:just let the last dj's last record play out that bit too long. the floor always welcomes the change (i.e. your intro)

it should also be about djs educating as well as dancing......

yes... but only if the music represents anything other than pure entertainment. for many consumers, it doesn't.

for me, this connects with my thoughts on track structure and formula... in other words, it's no good talking about how the music is supposed to mean 'more' and should be 'deeper' and yet should also have an appeal to a gathered audience... unless you are willing to go all out to make the environment and the context have the potential to resonate with newcomers as much as it resonated with you when you first heard it, back in the day. (i mean you in general :d ) and more than ten years on, is it enough to simply rent out a club, put a list of djs behind the decks and mix records all night?

at the moment, what with declining club audiences all round - clearly not. of course, we do have to recognise that decline as an aspect of the cyclical way these things work.. so kids wanna wear eyeliner and play 80s riffs for a while cos their older brothers and their vinyl collections seem so.... 90s. :d

nonetheless it seems imperative to at this point to look to other musical cultures that have survived commercialisation to an extent that they can still produce mindblowing music from the roots to the tip on any given day, namely: reggae and hiphop i.e. they have the cultural capacity to handle total sellout and misrepresentation of the form.

unfortunately both sounds have far greater ability to communicate ideas than drum n bass due to their capacity for lyrical expression, and in order to endow the future of drum n basss with a role as something other than an instrumental backbeat to a night out, it must come with something that delivers with as much force and potential to communicate as a lyric - either in a deliberate variation on the form of the music as we've known it - or in a deliberate re-presentation of the context in which the music is to be experienced. in other words, people know about beats, they know about seamless mixing, they know about the idea of dancing all night, they know about vinyl, they know about bla bla bla. even taken all together, these elements do not constitute a culture that can resonate for people who did not experience their reference first time round... instead they only constitute a form of entertainment through cultural reference (much like the way the rewind, originating in reggae, has become so abused and rendered devoid of meaning through its tiresome industrial-scale application in drum n bass).

don't get me wrong - i don't believe that reggae or hiphop are some sort of scared spheres inviolate from the hand of commercial corruption -absolutely not. but they have greater lasting force as musical cultures because of their room for vocal expression. d+b doesn't have that reach right now.

drum n bass - as instrumental music, through hardcore and jungle up to d+b - needed the social context of mass drug ingestion to get people fucked enough to ditch their innate western european 'inability to lose oneself in dancing without being fucked'... no matter that drum n bass's finest hours so far have been (on the whole) probably much less drug-dependent than those of, say, techno or house.... the music still needed parties of people off their gills on drugs demanding that mad mashup of subs and breakbeats in order to juice up the music with the vitalism that it thrived on in all its subsequent developments (indeed, i would contend that whenever it has consciously strayed utterly from those functional roots, it has almost always been to the detriment of the music.

so: in short, run raves and make it your business to get everybody (preferably fresh-faced young acolytes i.e. those-most-likely-to-have-a-religious-experience-to-your-muisc ) mashed up to a soundtrack of you and of only your sound (mix cds of your own tunes only). or.. re-style and re-present the music's role in a social context ..... either vocalise it, or re-define the whole party set-up and format.

:d

And more than ten years on, is it enough to simply rent out a club, put a list of djs behind the decks and mix records all night?

Absolutely.

Lets focus on going back to basics.

A dark club, a proper sound system (it can be done in London still, I was at the DMZ party on Saturday) and build a vibe. People will come if you give it time.

If the vibe and the excitement and the key elements (bass and a groove) are there people will dance to the far out stuff.

Forget extraneous shit.

That said I think drum and bass's 'moment' is gone (and I'm not talking about whether it is fashionable or not) and its difficult, if not impossible to capture that again. And thats the biggest problem we all have.

been reading a lot of your posts on the previous threads (especially the albums one) and you all seem to be going on about dreaded "the formula"

my question is what would you have instead of this formula of intro, breakdown, drop, breakdown, drop?

i know it can get a bit tedious sometimes, but what can you do? dj's (in clubs, on the radio and at home) still have to be able to mix these tunes, and everybody know what a wanker it can be to mix tunes in where the bass is in from the 1st bar!!!

so.... how do we break the formula, while keeping it dj friendly?



p.s.. i KNOW not all drum and bass is for djing and can be just for listening, but like i said most people who buy records ARE dj'S. I DON'T LIKE THAT, BUT IT'S TRUE

there are no rules.
there shouldnt be any rules.
you make what you feel.
stop conforming and start writing.

i would say most DJs, including me have records that they will tend not to play becasue they may be hard to mix, not just in a beatmatch way, but in a vibe way, or even a dynamics way.

.

you conform. Nothing wrong with that it just depends on what kind of a dj you are but in general you dnb kids shouldnt say that you are pushing musical boundaries by doing so even if dnb is a small knit thing, the fact is all you Djs on here are no different from the bigger ones (dnb or house or blah blah) give or take a very small minority.

but what you're talking about is kind of different. Take a track like Soundwall VIP - has a pretty unmixable, beatless intro, but I've still heard it played loads of times at technicality because it tears the place apart. I've heard Matrix - Convoy at Technicality, and at Carbon I think, and that's challenging to make sound good, just because it has a really different vibe. DJs at these nights clearly make the kind of effort you'd never see at Ram or One Nation.

Soundwall VIP is pretty mixable... just mix it from the drop (if you're as lazy as me), then it's much easier than eating cheesecake

Btw, speaking of not-following-the-formula... there's these tunes that have for example 15 or 17 bars till the drop... you can encourage that (yay artistic freedom) but i dont think it adds anything to a track other than annoy the DJ

most of the examples of non formularic so far on this thread are

It's the DJs job to adapt to the tune he's mixing. If a DJ won't play a tune he thinks is good just because it's hard to get it in the mix, then he's a shit DJ. If a tune is completely unmixable but sounds good, play it from the top.. not the end of the world is it?

Half true.

i would say most DJs, including me (and i dont think im shit? am i?), have records that they will tend not to play becasue they may be hard to mix, not just in a beatmatch way, but in a vibe way, or even a dynamics way.

the crowd also has a lot to do with it... you know, you can play an amazing mash up set of different tempos, vibes, dyanamics and themes, but if the crowd aint getting it... you probably wont get booked there again. you can try and be all "fuck them" and force them to understand what you're doing.. but if they dont.. you dont get paid. Sad, but true...

my feelings these days... its D+B, live with it.

hahahahahahahahahahaha
i like

have you noticed most of the tunes your talking of (ie old meatlheadz etc in neptunes case, or 9th hand or somthing like mac's or fanu's tunes) still consist of the intro/drop/breakdown/drop or just intro/ drop sequence?? so it is still part of the formula, correct? don't get me wrong, they are brilliant, non dancefloor aimed tunes but... they still have the formula

you COULD make a tune say with no intro that just drops from the 1st bar, but where do you take it from there??

have you noticed most of the tunes your talking of (ie old meatlheadz etc in neptunes case, or 9th hand or somthing like mac's or fanu's tunes) still consist of the intro/drop/breakdown/drop or just intro/ drop sequence?? so it is still part of the formula, correct? don't get me wrong, they are brilliant, non dancefloor aimed tunes but... they still have the formula

you COULD make a tune say with no intro that just drops from the 1st bar, but where do you take it from there??

depends.. you can do it like i heard Photek do it a few years ago.. the tunes he played "didn't" seem to have any structure themselves.. beat and all were rolling from the start, like a house tune... the structure was in the mixing itself... his whole set was how you normally handle tunes that are rated "in between mixing"... not aimed to make people go crazy on the dancefloor out of nowhere... but which can keep a nice flow going

IMHO, the formulas are there to make it more likely that it will be possible to find good mixes. However, if people only think about mixing as essentially "fading one track into the next", then it almost doesn't seem worth accepting the track structure constraints. On the other hand, when you start to think about the possibilities of mixing as an art form, keeping certain invariants in tracks (e.g. everything being perfectly on time, groups of 16/32/64, etc.) makes it possible to be more creative with mixing. Some people take more advantage of that than others...

You can almost make an analogy with poetry. There are several standard "forms" that people *choose* to write in (e.g. haiku, iambic pantameter) because part of the creativity is doing something interesting within the form.

Part of the reason I started making "dancefloor" drum and bass is because I *wanted* to work within the constraints of the format (as opposed to working completely freeform). It's generally more difficult and demanding to work within a format than to just do "stream of consciousness" stuff -- that's part of what makes it enjoyable. If I ever do make anything that's not in a "mixable" format again, it's going to be 1000% better because of the years I've spent trying to master making "proper DnB" (both in format and production).

Patterns become formulas because they are strong and effective patterns, but that doesn't necessarily mean we should stop looking for other strong patterns. In fact, I'm all for coming up with entirely new formulas -- but in order to do that you have to understand what makes the existing ones work.

I've have a lot of theories as far as that goes, and I will start putting them into practice once I have a suitable outlet