Jungle vs Drum & Bass

I realize this question is controversial, and has been rinsed, but I'm curious to hear what you guys have to say. It's obvious that these two genres are related, but is there a difference between jungle and drum and bass, or are they the same thing? I've heard that anything after the mid to late 90's is more drum and bass, whereas before that jungle. I personally do think there is a difference in sound between them. Jungle seems to be more break oriented, choppy, with organic drums, whereas dnb is a bit more minimal on the drums. A lot of stuff that comes from scientific wax, subtle audio, bassbin, and subvert central to me is more on the jungle tip, and you can see various big name producers making their own jungle styled tracks such as High Contrasts "Ghost of Jungle Past" or Nu Tones "Our House"...is there a new enthusiasm out there for these types of tracks?

Here we go again

[Statto]

I have no opinion on this matter

[noisemonkey]

polyrhythmic mayhem please

Crap, I'm out of popcorn. Can people hold off posting any more until I get back from the shop?

2012 will be big for Jungle.

And yes, I believe there is a genuine and vital difference in both D&B and Jungle.

2012 will be big for Jungle.

jungle or future jungle

I think jungle is making a come back...like it's coming full circle. Look at mainstream hip hop in the US. At hip hops inception, it was funky music with conscious lyrics. Then it moved into thugged out, guns bitches and money type crap, and now conscious hip hop is making a comeback in the mainstream. (It always existed in the underground scene).

2012 will be big for Jungle.

jungle or future jungle

Just Jungle

Don't care very much for the Future Jungle TBH

2012 will be big for Jungle.

jungle or future jungle

Just Jungle

Don't care very much for the Future Jungle TBH

It's just new school breaks with that bent Dubstep bass noise that every man and his dog smashes the arse out of from what I've heard so I'll stick to actual Jungle I think.

I think the problem is people reappropriate the name without too much care for the actual form.

Also, that it is very hard to describe what jungle is, far more so than drum & bass.

I think the best description i've come up with for jungle is 'where the melody of the tune is carried by the bassline'.

[noisemonkey]

I would say the beats have a more melodic effect in jungle due to various pitch shifting and filtering and also a lot of tunes basslines are just gargantuan subs here and there

Jungle is Drum&Bass but not all Drum&Bass is Jungle.

Jungle is Drum&Bass but not all Drum&Bass is Jungle.

I'd go with that

I'm not sure about that. Jungle existed before D+B, so how can it be a subset of it? Its a bit like saying reggae is a subset of dancehall, or rock n' roll is a subset of punk.

I'm not sure about that. Jungle existed before D+B, so how can it be a subset of it? Its a bit like saying reggae is a subset of dancehall, or rock n' roll is a subset of punk.

I don't mean chronologically, I just meant that Jungle can be considered Drum&Bass but not the other way around.

I'm not sure about that. Jungle existed before D+B, so how can it be a subset of it? Its a bit like saying reggae is a subset of dancehall, or rock n' roll is a subset of punk.

I don't mean chronologically, I just meant that Jungle can be considered Drum&Bass but not the other way around.

I know, but chronology is important. I cant think of another case where a new sub-genre name became a meta-genre name. Reggae will never be a subset of dancehall.

I think of them as two separate categories myself. Some crossover sure, but generally jungle is 93-96 and d+b is 96 on... I think confusion arises because d+b was specifically coined as an attempt to 'replace' jungle.

I think of them as two separate categories myself. Some crossover sure, but generally jungle is 93-96 and d+b is 96 on... I think confusion arises because d+b was specifically coined as an attempt to 'replace' jungle.

Not quite true, because both were 'concepts' trying to work out an identity for themselves during 92-93

It is fair to say drum & bass includes jungle, but yes jungle as a 'concept' began before drum & bass

'Jungle' could never hope to describe everything of 93-96 hence that is where 'drum & bass' is also needed

I think of them as two separate categories myself. Some crossover sure, but generally jungle is 93-96 and d+b is 96 on... I think confusion arises because d+b was specifically coined as an attempt to 'replace' jungle.

Not quite true, because both were 'concepts' trying to work out an identity for themselves during 92-93

It is fair to say drum & bass includes jungle, but yes jungle as a 'concept' began before drum & bass

'Jungle' could never hope to describe everything of 93-96 hence that is where 'drum & bass' is also needed

When did people start using drum and bass as a genre name? Bearing in mind that it was also being used in a different context to describe reggae and rare groove.

I mentioned those dates to give a rough idea of the sonics, TBH, I dont see why jungle is any less relevant a tag than D+B for the vast majority of music made during those years.

What happend to genres being named after the associated dance??

IE:

Foxtrot
Tango
Mambo
Ska
Salsa
Samba
etc....

IMHO Jungle = DnB

To avoid all the confusion, Brian Belle-Fortune used the term "JDB" = "Jungle Drum and Bass" in his book "All Crews" (which all of you should have read by now, otherwise you should be ashamed of yourselves)...

i always considered Jungle and Drum & Bass as the same genre...just a different name for the same idea...or maybe i`m wrong and or maybe it doesn`t matter anyhow, haha

To avoid all the confusion, Brian Belle-Fortune used the term "JDB" = "Jungle Drum and Bass" in his book "All Crews" (which all of you should have read by now, otherwise you should be ashamed of yourselves)...

Why? its mostly awful.

Not quite true, because both were 'concepts' trying to work out an identity for themselves during 92-93

It is fair to say drum & bass includes jungle, but yes jungle as a 'concept' began before drum & bass

'Jungle' could never hope to describe everything of 93-96 hence that is where 'drum & bass' is also needed

When did people start using drum and bass as a genre name? Bearing in mind that it was also being used in a different context to describe reggae and rare groove.

I mentioned those dates to give a rough idea of the sonics, TBH, I dont see why jungle is any less relevant a tag than D+B for the vast majority of music made during those years.

What you got to remember is that jungle started out whilst the music was still 'hardcore', and that drum & bass was an evolution of that. So jungle was always really the subset.

The first reference to 'drum & bass' I remember seeing was in a Criminal Minds interview in 1992 in Ravescene fanzine, talking about their Re-Baptised By Dub EP

In more general it was probably the start of 1993, when the music started being labeled in Blackmarket as 'hardcore drum & bass' that I remember it getting used. The problem was what hardcore started becoming bore very little resemblence to what hardcore was originally, so it needed a new term. Noone knew where the music was going.

I think we knew drum & bass was going to be a recognisable form when tracks such as LTJ Bukem 'Demons Theme', Lemon D 'Something I Feel' & FBD Project 'The Core' started appearing - it was not just that they were amens, but something else somehow different about them...

(that's Toxic Rhythms, not Something I Feel... there was no label scan on that vid)

Now all through this you had 'junglism', or 'hardcore junglist', developing as a style within this. A good example to give would be the Good, 2 Bad & Hugly stuff.

Kool FM played a massive part in developing this particular style. As the tunes began to get faster and more 'kinetic', so the tunes started getting simply known as 'junglist' e.g. Noise Factory 'Generation X EP'. This would be mid-summer 1993. Then, and probably thanks to M Beat more than anyone else, who stylised & stripped down the form, did what we know as 'jungle' finally arrive.

So, re. drum & bass:
somewhere in the latter half of 1992 the term must have taken on mutual usage, I don't know where/how. Someone else will have to answer that. An early record I have found with the term is this one http://www.rolldabeats.com/release/vice_versa/vvrrs001/. Of course, drum & bass was originally a term for reggae dubwise from the 70's, but you already mentioned that...

Crap, I'm out of popcorn. Can people hold off posting any more until I get back from the shop?

did take a day for this thread to really get rolling. i prefer to snack on hummus.