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Thread Contributor: NaphtaFUNK

#26
I gotta leg it again..... but one thing that always confuses me: producers who cite Funk as a big influence on their d+b... but who then make totally minimal, generally DARK, moody, boys-only drum n bass that claims to be indifferent to the limitations o fthe dancefloor. OK, but..... surely this is then a very different music that performs a very different function.... thus the only relation to funk (as far as I can see) is in the samples of the breaks... so why all the comparisons?

Show me how I'm wrong yez bastids! :P
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#27
naphta maybe because theyre whitey [Image: teef.gif]
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#28
naphta Wrote:one thing that always confuses me: producers who cite funk as a big influence on their d+b... but who then make totally minimal, generally dark, moody, boys-only drum n bass that claims to be indifferent to the limitations o fthe dancefloor. ok, but..... surely this is then a very different music that performs a very different function.... thus the only relation to funk (as far as i can see) is in the samples of the breaks... so why all the comparisons?

show me how i'm wrong yez bastids! Icon_razz

i think you're right
there's the deep funk groove of course
but basically funk for me is about...

Jig Icon_yippee [Image: dance.gif] Grin
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#29
naphta Wrote:
pez Wrote:

Kisskiss

ahh, fair play to ya pez! and if i can ever listen to music at work, i'll check it out!

i'll send ya a cd if you want? pm me your address! Xyxthumbs
[Image: pezholiodoa.gif]

batfink Wrote:bwabba bwabba bwabba NORK NORK NORK NORK bwabba bwabba bwabba NORK NORK bwabba NORK.
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#30
funk off
beats are there to be broken http://musicindevon.org/
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#31
Macc Wrote:If it isn't what is IN YOUR HEART AND SOUL, it's inferior.

why keep bringing up this fact in a context that suggests it's opposed to the idea of making music to make people dance? i think you're too brainwashed by the drum and bass scene :P couldn't it be in someone's heart and soul to want to make people shake some ass?

personally, funk appeals to me for a couple of reasons. the sense of space that arises from the instruments used, the production techniques, and the interplay of good musicians is pretty much ideal, and very similar to what i love about drum and bass - basslines holding down the very bottom, drums on top, and the rest either filling in the rhythmic space or punctuating it in the most delightful way. but just as importantly, i love the way it uses wrongness - everything from playing loosely to launching into the most leftfield drum fill out of nowhere to hammering a bass note that doesn't fit into a conventional scale so it's the most in your face note of the riff - to create that sense of dirtiness. frankly, i think modern dancefloor drum and bass comes closer to these things than any record paradox has ever made. but its rhythms are too square...

i haven't heard that much of it (mostly what my sister's boyfriend plays - he's got an insane and ever-growing late '70s/early '80s record collection), but i like some of the late '70s/early '80s funk i have heard even more than '60s/'70s funk. things got tighter and more electronic, 'more concentrated' in a way, but the best of it is still so dirty and rhythmically in your face. check out a track called 'funky stuff' by lizzy mercier descloux, it blows my mind!!!
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#32
Quote:but i like some of the late '70s/early '80s funk i have heard even more than '60s/'70s funk. things got tighter and more electronic, 'more concentrated' in a way, but the best of it is still so dirty and rhythmically in your face.

word

thats the best era, just before the revolution of digital
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#33
if you have to even ask WHY people like funk.....you're destined to never like it.


unless you've just never heard any, and you're just curous about it as a new form of music for you.


it's all FEEL.


here's a great example that you can probably get your hands on REALLY easily :

-throw on "the payback" by JB.

-listen to the sinister build at the begining and how it sorta gets your blood flowin' just a little differently

-then right when the groove drops hard and you hear that guitar playing the min13 chord on there, just BASK in the stink of how rude it FEELS right then and there.....THAT is the funk.
Making the simple complicated is commonplace; making the complicated simple, awesomely simple, that's creative!" 
-Mingus
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#34
dodz Wrote:if you have to even ask WHY people like funk.....you're destined to never like it.

Gimme a break Dodz - don't hit me with that old DOA-style argument! Grin I'm posing some questions here - both in reponse to Macc's complaining about cliches in d+b, and to probe the funk/d+b concection to see what people actually think.....

Quote:unless you've just never heard any, and you're just curous about it as a new form of music for you.

No, I've heard it alright... some of it sounds great - but amillion miles away from pretty much all drum n bass I';ve evr heard - bar some 95/96 jump-up/minimal rollidge.


Quote:it's all FEEL.

With respect, you could make the same claim for ALL music- anywhere - ever. It might be true for you.. but it certainly wouldn't advance this conversation much further! Lol

Quote:here's a great example that you can probably get your hands on REALLY easily : -throw on "the payback" by JB.

-listen to the sinister build at the begining and how it sorta gets your blood flowin' just a little differently

-then right when the groove drops hard and you hear that guitar playing the min13 chord on there, just BASK in the stink of how rude it FEELS right then and there.....THAT is the funk.

Yeah, I love that tune, so tight it's nasty!
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#35
Naphta Wrote:I gotta leg it again..... but one thing that always confuses me: producers who cite Funk as a big influence on their d+b... but who then make totally minimal, generally DARK, moody, boys-only drum n bass that claims to be indifferent to the limitations o fthe dancefloor. OK, but..... surely this is then a very different music that performs a very different function.... thus the only relation to funk (as far as I can see) is in the samples of the breaks... so why all the comparisons?

Show me how I'm wrong yez bastids! :P

I think you can appropriate what funk teaches you about working and developing a groove - funk is fundamentally quite minimal - without having to make music that has people singing, or motown bassline progressions or whatnot, if you see what I mean.

Source direct are a good example.
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#36
Thru the love of hip hop came the need to find the original samples.
I have some funk mixes in here that you all might enjoy.....
http://www.subvertcentral.com/forum/view...hp?t=14041
31|BASSDRIVE|FOKUZ|LEVITATED|OUTSIDER|VAMPIRE www.greenroomdnb.com
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#37
naphta : sorry mang, no disrespect or snarkyness intended.....


how about this for connecting funk to drum and bass/jungle (or at least most of the kind i like)

you say funk sounds a million miles away from dnb?

in some instances, i fully understand where you're coming from.....clinical, straight cut, techy sounding tunes don't bring the funk for me. nor do many tunes that fall under the "liquid funk" heading either.....that stuff reminds me a lot more of early 90's soul/acid jazz....

like logos had just pointed out, groove DEVELOPMENT and the structural integrity of it are very very important in funk music. this is mirrored in some drum and bass music. primarily from the source material : funk breaks. in essence, you get to CAPTURE all that stinky funky goodness, and redistribute as you see fit.....there's also a paralell with the "hype" feel of both genres....a good jungle party feels a lot like a good funk party.....i saw parliament and a bunch of other big and small funk groups before i was ever into raving, and i'd actual say that the fevered pitch the audience reaches at both types of events is really similar....

another note about "setting up the groove". when you play in a funk band, you tend to practice that "feel" thing until it gets so natural you can do it in your sleep....ie) one night, some friends and i decided to get "chicken grease" by d'angelo together properly.....and i MEAN PROPA'! if you know this tune, you'll know that it's basically one motif repeated over and over and over......but it just KILLS.....fuck, the groove those cats set up is just off the chain.....anyway.....we just sat upstairs and worked this 4 bar thing for around 3 hours straight. no solos.....no nothing.....JUST that groove. guitar, bass, drums....it's pretty similar to the way a lot of producers work with feel in drum and bass.....just fine tuning of everything until it's perfectly effortless sounding.....perception of the complex appears simple.
Making the simple complicated is commonplace; making the complicated simple, awesomely simple, that's creative!" 
-Mingus
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#38
naphta ... listen to some eddie bo stuff ..its sometimes funny ...always shaky ..and absolute energetic stuff
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#39
Logos Wrote:
Naphta Wrote:I gotta leg it again..... but one thing that always confuses me: producers who cite Funk as a big influence on their d+b... but who then make totally minimal, generally DARK, moody, boys-only drum n bass that claims to be indifferent to the limitations o fthe dancefloor. OK, but..... surely this is then a very different music that performs a very different function.... thus the only relation to funk (as far as I can see) is in the samples of the breaks... so why all the comparisons?

Show me how I'm wrong yez bastids! :P

I think you can appropriate what funk teaches you about working and developing a groove - funk is fundamentally quite minimal - without having to make music that has people singing, or motown bassline progressions or whatnot, if you see what I mean.

Source direct are a good example.

yeah totally... letting the groove work on the floor. i think the whole fascination with funk influencing my production is the subtleness. even just the missing out of a snare, or an earlier kick drum can be so fucking funky its untrue.

i had a chat with mate and we agreed that funk is all about the late or early hits. you build up a groove, then delay the last snare every now and again.. so funky. all that stop start shit gets me everytime.
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#40
DJFracture Wrote:i had a chat with mate and we agreed that funk is all about the late or early hits. you build up a groove, then delay the last snare every now and again.. so funky. all that stop start shit gets me everytime.

yeah, that's so true as well.....you just have this thing trancing you out and then the unexpected open hat/kick on the one OUT OF NOWHERE just KILLS IT! that's when you shake your head all weird and the likkle hairs stand endwise!
Making the simple complicated is commonplace; making the complicated simple, awesomely simple, that's creative!" 
-Mingus
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#41
DJFracture Wrote:yeah totally... letting the groove work on the floor. i think the whole fascination with funk influencing my production is the subtleness. even just the missing out of a snare, or an earlier kick drum can be so fucking funky its untrue.

i had a chat with mate and we agreed that funk is all about the late or early hits. you build up a groove, then delay the last snare every now and again.. so funky. all that stop start shit gets me everytime.

Yeah, its definitely those little pieces of magic that make something have that groove. For what its worth Naphta I think Sileni absolutely ouses funk in his productions, even though he's using quite abstract bits of sound, like Robert Hood or Surgeon or Jeff Mills.
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#42
logos Wrote:
djfracture Wrote:yeah totally... letting the groove work on the floor. i think the whole fascination with funk influencing my production is the subtleness. even just the missing out of a snare, or an earlier kick drum can be so fucking funky its untrue.

i had a chat with mate and we agreed that funk is all about the late or early hits. you build up a groove, then delay the last snare every now and again.. so funky. all that stop start shit gets me everytime.

yeah, its definitely those little pieces of magic that make something have that groove. for what its worth naphta i think sileni absolutely ouses funk in his productions, even though he's using quite abstract bits of sound, like robert hood or surgeon or jeff mills.

Yes
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#43
DJFracture Wrote:yeah totally... letting the groove work on the floor. i think the whole fascination with funk influencing my production is the subtleness. even just the missing out of a snare, or an earlier kick drum can be so fucking funky its untrue.

i had a chat with mate and we agreed that funk is all about the late or early hits. you build up a groove, then delay the last snare every now and again.. so funky. all that stop start shit gets me everytime.

ALL OF THAT.

That is your answer Naphta, that is where the use of the word funk in drumfunk or whatever comes from.

And it is the arranmgement of hits, the waiting hits, or the early hits or both that fascinates me and makes me jump around like a lunatic when done right.



Quote:why keep bringing up this fact in a context that suggests it's opposed to the idea of making music to make people dance? i think you're too brainwashed by the drum and bass scene. Couldn't it be in someone's heart and soul to want to make people shake some ass?

Yes it could. Don't misunderstand me - when did I say that was wrong/bad/shit? Look at say, Gimme Some More. A tune made to make that ass SHAKE! And shake my big fat ass does when it comes on.

My point is that in dnb people get obsessed with making the dancefloor move (which for some weird reason means adhering to some strict codes about what sort of beat and bassline you can have) to the point where it STIFLES their feeling, their expression, and that is a bad thing.

Put simply; IMO etc etc - It's when satisfying this dancefloor thing overrides whatever the original feeling behind the tune was that things are shit. Get me now? Smile
[Image: protabl3.gif]
Don Cherry Wrote:Every human is blessed in her or his life with one love (passion), no matter how long it may last. This Absolute love will last in one's heart and soul forever.
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#44
dodz Wrote:naphta : sorry mang, no disrespect or snarkyness intended.....
Grin No worries Dodz, just thought you misunderstood my intention in discussing this...

Quote:like logos had just pointed out, groove DEVELOPMENT and the structural integrity of it are very very important in funk music.

Absolutely. But based upon that criterion, I would suggest that jump-up (old Smokers Inc, Eastside, early TOV, V, SS during his Rollers period...) are much closer to funk than anything from the likes of, say, Source Direct. For sure the SD boys knew how to build a minimal tune, but the (frequently) alienating atmospheres (I mean you couldn't call a Source Direct tune a 'party' tune no matter how good it is!) pretty much sever the funk connections for me.
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#45
orson Wrote:naphta ... listen to some eddie bo stuff ..its sometimes funny ...always shaky ..and absolute energetic stuff

Xyxthumbs cheers orsonious!
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#46
logos Wrote:for what its worth naphta i think sileni absolutely ouses funk in his productions, even though he's using quite abstract bits of sound, like robert hood or surgeon or jeff mills.

Chin hmmmm..... haven't heard anything enw frm sileni in a very long time, but if his stuff reminded me of anything it was abstract techno.

don't really know surgeon or jeff mills too well...
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#47
Naphta, you seem to look at funk like Joe Public views drum and bass. When they look they see cheesy jump up 'partaaay' basslines, a certain type of beat........... Happy, good time music. Which by and large it is.

BUT (a big but) it isn't ALL like that. There's more chilled, darker, moodier, weirder and generally less paaaaarrtaaaay funk about. Smile

Check Weather Report - Non Stop Home.

You may not know it, but it is ripped off wholesale on the 4th tune on N+P's Transmograpfication album. All those weirdo noises, all the weirdo guitar type wah rhodes shit on that track is on the tune the break was sampled from. In fact they have pretty much looped a harp sample and run it over the top of the original.
[Image: protabl3.gif]
Don Cherry Wrote:Every human is blessed in her or his life with one love (passion), no matter how long it may last. This Absolute love will last in one's heart and soul forever.
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#48
Macc Wrote:
DJFracture Wrote:yeah totally... letting the groove work on the floor. i think the whole fascination with funk influencing my production is the subtleness. even just the missing out of a snare, or an earlier kick drum can be so fucking funky its untrue.

i had a chat with mate and we agreed that funk is all about the late or early hits. you build up a groove, then delay the last snare every now and again.. so funky. all that stop start shit gets me everytime.

ALL OF THAT.

That is your answer Naphta, that is where the use of the word funk in drumfunk or whatever comes from.

I hear ya. But a chief defining difference still remains for me - so much 'drumfunk' (and I don't just mean Paradox here at all) is quite alienating in vibe. Y'know? So grimly resolutely determined to avoid the inclusion of the dreaded 'cheese' (which FUNK AFAIK, is absolutely stuffed full of!), thatv often, what's left sounds to me more like the raw mechanics of Funk - rather than anything resembling the vibe. And a music that explores only the raw mechnica of drum rhythms is - let's face it - the flip side of the coin from Silly Dilly Grin and his endless bass farting. Exercises in technique.

And this in essence is what I've been talking about. You give out about all these producers talking about '96' this or that, but IMO, that's what such people are after - not a re-creation of anything per se, but the re-injection of BIGGER dramatic and emotional gestures into their music.

Quote:My point is that in dnb people get obsessed with making the dancefloor move (which for some weird reason means adhering to some strict codes about what sort of beat and bassline you can have) to the point where it STIFLES their feeling, their expression, and that is a bad thing.

I agree completely... but I would hazard a guess that because you didn't experience raving at a period when 'dancefloor' wasn't another word for 'cheap-lowest common denominator make-me-some-cash bullshit' in d+b - at a period when you could indeed hear mad rhythms and witness them tearing up the place...... that the term and indeed the function has been utterly tarnished for you. Which IMO is a real shame.

Quote:Put simply; IMO etc etc - It's when satisfying this dancefloor thing overrides whatever the original feeling behind the tune was that things are shit. Get me now? Smile

I would suggest that ultimately, many of these people are more motivated by making money than by ACTUALLY making people dance.
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#49
Macc Wrote:Check Weather Report - Non Stop Home.

You may not know it, but it is ripped off wholesale on the 4th tune on N+P's Transmograpfication album. All those weirdo noises, all the weirdo guitar type wah rhodes shit on that track is on the tune the break was sampled from. In fact they have pretty much looped a harp sample and run it over the top of the original.

Yeah, I've heard the originals alright... and obviously all Funk is not just good-time music. But let's just say that when I think 'Funk', I think 'Inclusive Music'. But when I hear 'Drumfunk', I think (probably) 'Exclusive Music'...
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#50
Naphta Wrote:I hear ya. But a chief defining difference still remains for me - so much 'drumfunk' (and I don't just mean Paradox here at all) is quite alienating in vibe. Y'know? So grimly resolutely determined to avoid the inclusion of the dreaded 'cheese' (which FUNK AFAIK, is absolutely stuffed full of!), thatv often, what's left sounds to me more like the raw mechanics of Funk - rather than anything resembling the vibe. And a music that explores only the raw mechnica of drum rhythms is - let's face it - the flip side of the coin from Silly Dilly Grin and his endless bass farting. Exercises in technique.

Hmmm, a fair point, but then note my other post re: the bit I made red btw. A lot of funk is purely mechanics. I suggest you widen your funk horizons a little. Again I refer you to the other post I made a minute ago.

Quote:And this in essence is what I've been talking about. You give out about all these producers talking about '96' this or that, but IMO, that's what such people are after - not a re-creation of anything per se, but the re-injection of BIGGER dramatic and emotional gestures into their music.

People can say what they like Smile I have only pointed out that it doesn't help with the whole 'pushing things forward' thing by constantly being nostalgic about stuff that was coming out nearly ten years ago. THERE IS NO TIME LIKE THE PRESENT.

As regards emotion in the music, I agree. But then the whole commoditisation (is that a word? Lol ) of the music will only make that difficult.

Quote:I agree completely... but I would hazard a guess that because you didn't experience raving at a period when 'dancefloor' wasn't another word for 'cheap-lowest common denominator make-me-some-cash bullshit' in d+b - at a period when you could indeed hear mad rhythms and witness them tearing up the place...... that the term and indeed the function has been utterly tarnished for you. Which IMO is a real shame.

NO NO NO NO NO! Grin

My rave 'home' is Technicality, and it fits the description you give there above perfectly; 'you could indeed hear mad rhythms and witness them tearing up the place' - THAT is Technicality.

My main gripe (God I have loads of em Grin ) is WHY CAN'T MORE PEOPLE BE AS OPEN AS THAT? Shit man, I even saw one person dance to one of my tunes in there once Icon_eek Hahaha

Quote:I would suggest that ultimately, many of these people are more motivated by making money than by ACTUALLY making people dance.

Precisely - the two have become confused, and that is bollocks.
[Image: protabl3.gif]
Don Cherry Wrote:Every human is blessed in her or his life with one love (passion), no matter how long it may last. This Absolute love will last in one's heart and soul forever.
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