This one is going to be massive in the UK when it comes out, already banned in Essex 
For those who don't know its a grime track that is big on the pirates in London and elsewhere too, and is being hyped like crazy. Anyway I quite like it, cos like a lot of grime it is so anti-musical, like hardcore.
Which, anyway, got me thinking - do any of you lot (as breakbeat drum and bass heads) feel like prog rockers in the 1970s when punk was just about to come along...I do in a way...
Sorry for the late-hour deep questions. 
Phokus Wrote:Any audio of it?
http://www.uptownrecords.com/lethalb.ram
quite jolly 
Logos Wrote:Which, anyway, got me thinking - do any of you lot (as breakbeat drum and bass heads) feel like prog rockers in the 1970s when punk was just about to come along...I do in a way...
heh. fuck yeah i do.
not feeling this mc driven moody playstation sound.. garage used to be great its all been downhill for a few years
dharma one Wrote:heh. fuck yeah i do.
not feeling this mc driven moody playstation sound.. garage used to be great its all been downhill for a few years
I like grime, both musically (it reminds me of acid house and hardcore in how it is so radically anti-musical but also kind of intelligent at the same time) and some of the MCs are quite good/funny (Wiley, Dizzee, Trim, Lethal B etc).
But I think its less about whether you like it or not, and more, well, its been 16 years since the Acid House explosion, punk was 10 years before that, aren't we due for something new and confrontational, young and British to come out of the underground into the pop charts/mainstream area on its own terms, without compromising itself - not saying grime is necessarily that thing, but its worth thinking about.
when grime started to take shape, i think a lot of people thought it was going to kickstart the rave generation's "punk" era. but it's been a few years now, and the scene has barely made a scratch on the popular consciousness. only Dizzee has crossed over to any extent, and judging from his last album he's sort of making his own path rather than opening the rest of the world to the grime sound. i dunno. i just wish you didn't have to be in London to get all these records!
evergreen Wrote:when grime started to take shape, i think a lot of people thought it was going to kickstart the rave generation's "punk" era. but it's been a few years now, and the scene has barely made a scratch on the popular consciousness. only Dizzee has crossed over to any extent, and judging from his last album he's sort of making his own path rather than opening the rest of the world to the grime sound. i dunno. i just wish you didn't have to be in London to get all these records!
Roll deep LP coming though.
Hope they make a grime LP instead of using the cash to hire a decent studio, 'real' engineer etc 
Rubbish. 
WiLSHY Wrote:Rubbish.
likewise sentiments here
Logos Wrote:Roll deep LP coming though.
Hope they make a grime LP instead of using the cash to hire a decent studio, 'real' engineer etc do you think it'll do better than the Wiley album? i heard XL dropped him for not meeting expectations . . .
the recent grime tracks seem to be better produced and more "musical" as a whole ... not necessarily in a bad way. i think grime will always try to cross over with better production, hooks etc as long as it's a song-based genre, even if it's consciously avant-garde. which i guess is debatable to an extent.
evergreen Wrote:do you think it'll do better than the Wiley album? i heard XL dropped him for not meeting expectations . . .
the recent grime tracks seem to be better produced and more "musical" as a whole ... not necessarily in a bad way. i think grime will always try to cross over with better production, hooks etc as long as it's a song-based genre, even if it's consciously avant-garde. which i guess is debatable to an extent.
Its the way of all London rave/street/pirate musics. Hardcore is a case in point: hardcore>darkside/jungle tekno>then into 95 and beyond. Its really about individuals who make the music, like, loads of the grime producers will have moved on from their playstations and reason (though I know that one of the synths in reason is THE grime bass synth ), loads of them will be using Logic etc now, so thats how it goes.
it's all about those grimey accents.
Logos Wrote:Anyway I quite like it, cos like a lot of grime it is so anti-musical, like hardcore.
Have to totally disagree with you there....IMO you cannot even begin to compare the two genres....It depends on how u define "anti-musical" but Grime is anti musical because its content/sound is so striped down Hardcore was/is...more "musical" containing uplifting pianos, synths strings and vocal as well as dark synths, proper breakbeats and rumblig sub basslines.
"scene" wise they are totally different Hardcore was all about a friendly/united atmosphere, everybody coming together as one, where from my impression of the grime scene it is moody and dark.
IMO there is nothing to link the two other than grime has desended from Hardcore, In Musical content and in the whole atmosphere of the scenes they are totally different.
In terms of London pirates, there are still 5-6 Big DNB/old school pirates on air and a similar number of House pirates on, there are quite a few Grime pirates on........but nothing can ever match the number of hardcore/jungle/dnb pirates back in 93/94, almost every pirate seemed to be playing the music!!
I may have gone off on a different tangent than u meant, but I feel quite strongly on this
To me hardcore was anti-musical because it was DIY, cut up breakbeats, vocals at the wrong speed, strings and pianos out of tune, just total cut and paste, through everything in and fuck songwriting conventions etc. Also there was the hard mentasm angle as well. Grime reminds me of that in musical approach rather than content specifically.
There is also the pre-hardcore Warp records, warehouse sound which a lot of grime reminds me of in a postive way - massive basslines, bleeps etc. Obviously the scenes are really different - the obvious lack of a drug like E is the key factor, and a lot of it is very confrontational. Arguably hardcore was a suburban scene, where as grime is inner city, which may account for some differences. But its amazing how loads of stuff comes back round, sometimes the grime MCs say things that sound like a hardcore/jungle tekno MC might have said in 93 or whatever. I find that sort of thing really fascinating.
Logos Wrote:To me hardcore was anti-musical because it was DIY, cut up breakbeats, vocals at the wrong speed, strings and pianos out of tune, just total cut and paste, through everything in and fuck songwriting conventions etc. Also there was the hard mentasm angle as well. Grime reminds me of that in musical approach rather than content specifically.
There is also the pre-hardcore Warp records, warehouse sound which a lot of grime reminds me of in a postive way - massive basslines, bleeps etc. Obviously the scenes are really different - the obvious lack of a drug like E is the key factor, and a lot of it is very confrontational. Arguably hardcore was a suburban scene, where as grime is inner city, which may account for some differences. But its amazing how loads of stuff comes back round, sometimes the grime MCs say things that sound like a hardcore/jungle tekno MC might have said in 93 or whatever. I find that sort of thing really fascinating. totally agree with this. and it's worth noting that a lot of the big grime emcees used to rhyme over jungle on pirate stations ... i heard an old recording of Wiley and some others from '93 and they were faaaaast. grime is to hardcore as hip-hop is to funk.
the things which turn me off
naff string samples, orchestral hits, synth flutes and shit..wha gwan 
wack drum machine sounds
moody lyrics.. cmon i know its frustrating to be a teenager sometimes but life isnt so dark always let some love shine through!
the energy is still there, good rhythms and there are good mcs but musically garage used to be so much better a few years ago
sound wise reminds me of dirty south hiphop, miami bass, brazilian electro, puerto rican perreo.. its just the level of production is shit
i hate most of garage from a few years ago. it always had this real sleazy 'niteclub' quality to it, like a lot of really poor us r'n'b.
which is precisely why i like grime, bass heavy and completely unlike anything i've heard before, especially with the mcs over it. reminds me of warp records but made on an east london council estate.
each to his own! 
logos Wrote:i hate most of garage from a few years ago. it always had this real sleazy 'niteclub' quality to it, like a lot of really poor us r'n'b.
which is precisely why i like grime, bass heavy and completely unlike anything i've heard before, especially with the mcs over it. reminds me of warp records but made on an east london council estate.
each to his own!
yeah man, i know what youre saying! but aside from the slick garage there were tons of heavyweights, i mean proper bassline tunes. with crisp production. no casio orchestral hit samples!
el b... zed bias.. teebone.. landslide, steve gurley.. all the tempa crew..and breaks crossover stuff stanton warriors, zinc.. it was ruff but usually had like a soul or deeper element as well, was really reminiscent of 94-96 jungle
hey just found this article, interesting reading
http://www.woebot.com/movabletype/archives/000813.html
dharma one Wrote:yeah man, i know what youre saying! but aside from the slick garage there were tons of heavyweights, i mean proper bassline tunes. with crisp production. no casio orchestral hit samples!
el b... zed bias.. teebone.. landslide, steve gurley.. all the tempa crew..and breaks crossover stuff stanton warriors, zinc.. it was ruff but usually had like a soul or deeper element as well, was really reminiscent of 94-96 jungle
hey just found this article, interesting reading
http://www.woebot.com/movabletype/archives/000813.html
Nice link.
Yeah I hear you - Gurely's stuff was good, I also really dig El-B and Ghost, you can hear a lot of that sound in the deeper dubstep stuff today. Zed Bias also, and there you get that garage/west london interface thing.
Really like Hatcha's stuff, Tempa, SLT Mob etc, more so than the Eskibeat biz, I think Plasticman and Mark One/Oris Jay etc fall nicely between the two camps, and they are focusing more on the music than the MCs.
Its weird cos I rememer buying groove chronicles, all the EL-B tracks (especially that single on Locked On), first Horsepower 12s like it was yesterday, but its four years ago at least. Mad.
Did you like M Dubs, Dem 2, KMA and stuff like that?
Logos Wrote:Nice link.
Yeah I hear you - Gurely's stuff was good, I also really dig El-B and Ghost, you can hear a lot of that sound in the deeper dubstep stuff today.
yeah? i could check some new dubstep beats, whats some new good stuff?
Quote:Zed Bias also, and there you get that garage/west london interface thing.
for real thats what i was feeling 100%.. gonna be house mates with zed actually, in about a months time. hes made about 4 sick albums since that are just sitting there and waiting to be released.. broken and new soul vibes!
Quote:Really like Hatcha's stuff, Tempa, SLT Mob etc, more so than the Eskibeat biz, I think Plasticman and Mark One/Oris Jay etc fall nicely between the two camps, and they are focusing more on the music than the MCs.
yeah i remember buying some oris jays tunes in 2001...darqwan stuff. that was a little before i stopped buying garage.. he had some heavyweights!
Quote:Its weird cos I rememer buying groove chronicles, all the EL-B tracks (especially that single on Locked On),
digital. that was a tune! super tight production..i wonder what hes doing these days
Quote: first Horsepower 12s like it was yesterday, but its four years ago at least. Mad.
yeah man... times sure has been flying on wings 
Quote:Did you like M Dubs, Dem 2, KMA and stuff like that?
did dem 2 make that jump and shout remix? i had that..dont think ive got any kma.. wasnt that a bit harder stuff
ah so you live out in...where ever zed bias is from then? love that guys stuff, remember a really nice 12 on locked on from him (after neighbourhood), under a different name to zed bias though i think. a lot of the bugz in the attic, nubian minds styles really mesh with what zed bias was/is about i think.
i always liked oris jay cos he was from sheffield and had bleeps in his music, couldn't help but make the connection! as for recent dubstep/tempa stuff, i assume you heard the second horsepower lp...wasn't as good as in fine style imo but tight nontheless. there is a good slaughter mob thing on soulja from a while ago, which has some nice rolling tracks, dark but with a certain vibe. new slaughter mob 12 on hot flush called lamour/guts n bones, which has this cool latin tinged number, also the grime 2 compilation is actually more dubstepp-y. quite deep, opressive numbers from kode 9, digital mysticz and loefah. and i always, always check hatcha, some of his stuff is super minimal, but really rolling. its not garage, but i love it.
dem 2 did a jump and shout remix. i have it on the flip to the classic stanon warriors remix. good times for sure 
as for el-b, he's been quiet, but doing some really nice 4/4 as el-tuff with carl tuff enuff brown. a track of his called amazon (at least two years old) is getting a release on the new tempa allstars vol 2 ep. that will be a wicked release - two part 12" i think.
zeds just moved to manchester, i live in helsinki but moving to mcr also to make some beatz!
yeah that locked on 12 with injekta was heavy.. was it phuturistix.. or maddslinky?
bugz have definitely been checking his stuff and vice versa!i think there will be more of that link up.. zed and injekta are just starting a new broken label, called phuture lounge.. its distributed by goya. first release is a new phuturistix lp, sounds fuking amazing! theres garage flavors, broken, broken house, soul..lots of vintage synth and rhodes space jazz business..wicked singers!
thanks for the tips, will be checking those out!
there are some similarities in hardcore amd grime, as you say in terms of some of the rawer production values and not proper songwriting structures.
They both come from London, though grime is probably more centralised....but one big fundamental difference is the role of mcs....hardcore was music made for raving to, originally with few mcs and the music was certainly not made with mcs in mind, where as grime seems to be made more for mc to rhyme/talk/shout over.....the content should really be in the music. The mcs put me off for a start, but I do find the music a bit too stripped down......
Of course it all personal taste, but I just cant get into it...maybe I am getting old as well..........  :P
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