Michael Moore - Letter to Bush re Katrina

his method is satire
I presume you don't like Mark Thomas or Rory Bremner either?

There's a difference between good satire, and irritating, whiny satire. Especially when it's full of holes.

Whenever people see the name Michael Moore, they just tend to dismiss whatever's being said. Take the movie The Corporation - great film, but Moore's presence put so many people off seeing it - "Yeah whatever, just that whiney twat going off on one again..."

Right on, Vox

Regardless of whether you hate Michael Moore or not, he is undeniably the lesser of two evils. I happen to think that, despite his over-exposure in recent years, he performs a valuable, indeed critical service in slating Dubya at every opportunity.

I can see why some would find his methods nauseating but I'd rather a nauseating leftie drawing attention to Bush's multitude of shortcomings than some media giant like Fox news papering over all the cracks.

However, my faith in the US electorate (primarily the Bible Belt of middle America) was rocked so much by Bush's re-election that he seems fairly untouchable. So much so that he could probably even win a spelling bee at the moment.

[Macc]

i can see why some would find his methods nauseating but i'd rather a nauseating leftie drawing attention to bush's multitude of shortcomings than some media giant like fox news papering over all the cracks.

not bad for a wizened, bearded gandalf clone

I can see why some would find his methods nauseating but I'd rather a nauseating leftie drawing attention to Bush's multitude of shortcomings than some media giant like Fox news papering over all the cracks.

I find them both fairly sickening, but point taken.

vox

moore personalises his attack on the neo-cons because so many people dismiss politics out of hand unless it is personalised (... especially in the usa right now... 'governor' schwarzenneger anyone? )....

ultimately, what moore is attacking are the values (or lack of) espoused by those who put bush in power and who keep him there. bush's homely everyman-puppet face has kept those who really run the show in power and it is this appeal that moore is rightly targeting..

if any of you who find his methods unappealing can suggest any other ways to politically engage the electorate at large, i'd love to hear them.

and for those of you who claim to find him as or nearly as objectionable as bush himself ... please get a sense of proportionality.

The only reason he irritates is because he is working in almost total isolation and therefore has to carry the whole damn thing for everyone

which in other words means that he is doing what he is doing first and foremost for his own good.

Er... no it doesn't!

Anyway, who cares how much ego is involved to motivate him to perform? How is that relevant to the substance of his arguments?

[Macc]

naphta pops up with a gem

michael moore: has an annoying voice, overdoes the political sarcasm.

george bush: starts wars, lets thousands of his own people drown, thinks nothing of polluting the environment etc etc...

And for those of you who claim to find him as or nearly as objectionable as Bush himself ... please get a sense of proportionality.

Who said that?

Whenever people see the name Michael Moore, they just tend to dismiss whatever's being said.

Bit of a generalisation there

People feel put off not because of his content or approach, but more for his presence imo. He induces uneasyness in certain people (we've seen that already ), so regardless of his method Ben, I think it's a little unfair to brand him a whiney satirist.

He certainly does more good than harm.

FWIW - you try making a worthy documentary on a budget that wouldn't feed a herd of cows for a week

[Macc]

'He certainly does more harm that good'


Am I misunderstanding?

I don't see how he is harmful, unless annoying is considered harmful

rong way wound.

[Macc]

SLOC - politically as sharp as a bag of sponges

FWIW - you try making a worthy documentary on a budget that wouldn't feed a herd of cows for a week

I feed my cows with fillet steak and chateau neuf de pap

I know you don't mean it, but still.

The only reason he irritates is because he is working in almost total isolation and therefore has to carry the whole damn thing for everyone

which in other words means that he is doing what he is doing first and foremost for his own good.

Er... no it doesn't!

if you meant that moore has his own agenda then that's how i see it, but what i didn't say was that that'd mean he is only after money and fame, which i guess you understood it as. moore may not search for other similar parties' support, but he may cooperate with them if it furthers his ends.

Anyway, who cares how much ego is involved to motivate him to perform? How is that relevant to the substance of his arguments?

very true, not in the slightest. i still think his public persona is of a fucking idiot and supporting him means supporting the kind of idiocy i see nothing positive in, and everybody who claim that i should choose between moore and bush can go fuck themselves properly.

Hmm.

What I don't get is the left's obsession with depicting Bush as some sort of criminal mastermind behind every bad deed.

He is the President so ultimatelly takes responsibility for the collapse of any effective response to Katrina at the federal level. That is how it should be, and I've no doubt he will suffer politically because of the intense suffering of the people in New Orleans and elsewhere.

But equally he doesn't sit around in a secret lair under the White House planning how to fuck all the poor blacks in New Orleans over. Its symptomatic of an iditoic and infantile leftism to incinuate that he is 'responsible' for what happened in such a direct way.

I think him and his cabal are doing enough to show how divorced they are from the aspirations and needs of all their citizens without 'help' from Moore or others.

Logos, WHAT LEFT? i dont even think Bush and his bumlegions would still be in office if we HAD another party. there really is no other alternative in our country cos the Democratic donkey is locked up in Cheney's basement wearin a gimp suit

Moore is unfortunately as much a symptom as he is a response to the state of our media and government

Left is relative. Also I meant the Eurpoean/international left as well which has found itself completely un-equipped to take on the right in the post 9/11 world (glib reference I know but its late).

Anyway it depends on how you want to think about the American electoral system.

I'll link you a good article which argues its going through one of its 70 year or so re-configurations in what the two parties actually stand for (well its more complicated than that, where they stand, what their base is etc etc).

When I find it

Left is relative. Also I meant the Eurpoean/international left as well which has found itself completely un-equipped to take on the right in the post 9/11 world (glib reference I know but its late).

Anyway it depends on how you want to think about the American electoral system.

I'll link you a good article which argues its going through one of its 70 year or so re-configurations in what the two parties actually stand for (well its more complicated than that, where they stand, what their base is etc etc).

When I find it

from my surely-attenuated yank perspective it seems to me that the left is on retreat EVERYWHERE in the world except for Venezuela, for better or worse. and in the U.S. do we even have a "left" in the international sense? no wobblies, socialists, greens, communists, anyone anymore, just these huskshell rattletrap echobox Damnocrats. and Clinton was a wolf in sheep's clothing. nearly every one i freely splash with my urine, individually and collectively

that article sounds interestin, if u find it before u fall asleep

The left needs to find new ways of thinking about itself and society I think. This isn't being done now, and it certianly isn't being done by the anti-globolisation hippies.

But equally he doesn't sit around in a secret lair under the White House planning how to fuck all the poor blacks in New Orleans over.

no, if he did that at least he would be doing something.

lets all sit about and whine about mike moore.

my fucking god

yeah Duh Prez dont do much, he's the only person in the States who does the work of -4 people; the rest of us (still lucky enuf to hv jobs) are doin the work of 4. the alleged left wastes a lot of ammunition on a paper tiger when they shd be lookin at the Machiavellian figures behind him.

Michael Moore is a fucking nob. I don't like him and I don't like his methods. Bowling for Columbine is so full of holes and contradictions, it's just unbelievable.

Maybe you could provide 1 or 2 examples? Ive read through 'Michael Moore is a big fat idiot', and moorelies.com and all the other attacks that have been published - and I was genuinely shocked! How could I have missed all these obvious contradictions and blatant lies?

Then I looked for the footnotes/links that backed up these allegations so I could check out their provenance- and guess what? They werent there!

The vast majority of the attacks on Moores work are rubbish - completely unsubstantiated in most cases. Moore has also replied to accusations of 'inventing' facts, re-editing scenes, and manipulating timelines to suit his agenda by providing uncut versions of scenes, and verifiable sources to back up his dates on his site..

Whislt Im not saying that hes OTM about everything, or that hes even 100% factually correct - by the standards of American journalism I dont think there are any grounds to accuse him of deliberately attempting to decieve or lie to his audience - though if you know different I'd be interested to read your argument.

As - i think Naphta has pointed out above - Moore is the first voice on the left to take on the right at its own mass media game, so not only has he been torn apart by every conservative with a radio slot/Newspaper column/TV show, he has also faced some fairly heavyweight corporate and political resistance, and all in all, they seem to have done a good job - as the mud has certainly stuck..

On an aside - Im not Moores biggest fan. He can be sloppy, arrogant and polemical - BUT - that doesnt make him a liar. I also worry, that the rise of polemical leftism in the wake of Moore - exemplified by Air America's tabloid radio format - is a risky road to take. On the one hand Liberal ideas finally have a mass-market medium (for the first time in about 90 years in the US), but on the other - the attack dog journalism, personal attacks, snide jokes and unsubstantiated mocking of the right just leads to a homogenisation of the political spectrum. The Left has traditionally been defined by its Rational, Humanistic, Common Sense, Honest (and lets face it - unpopular) approach to political discourse. If all of these principles fall by the wayside in the search for bigger audiences, all we have left are two sides shouting at each other, with neither of them offering a solution.

The left needs to find new ways of thinking about itself and society I think. This isn't being done now,

Elements of the Left are spot on on many poltical, social and economic issues, and much of this talk abpout the left having to 'sort itself out' is IMO, wishful thinking on the part of politicians and the media. The thinking has been done. Those ideas need to be sold to people now, which can be difficult if youre not willing to dumb down your message for mass consumption - market and manipulate rather than inform and offer solutions.

Still - if the aim of the left is to get people to think outside their hardwired socio-cultural/political/economic boxes - and make their own decisions based on information that they've tracked down themselves - then I believe progreess is being made.

and it certianly isn't being done by the anti-globolisation hippies.

Yowch - generalistion-tastic! Call me a hippy again and Ill smash yer face in! (joking to make a point)

shame this thread is turning in a like/dislike michael moore thread instead of more discussion on bush's behaviour concerning new orleans