Chopping vs Synching / Ableton vs ReCycle / Swing vs Itself

I am crazy frustrated by the shortcomings of my current break-chopping techniques.

I'm using Ableton Live in combination with Propellerheads Recycle. I'll use one of these two tactics:

(1) I'll bring the break into Ableton's waveform editor, pull around the tempo-markers until it's in time with the tempo the way I want it to be (because of course the looser breaks often are all over the map, rhythmically) and then just rearrange it by dragging the waveform around-- crop, slice, join, etc.

(2) I'll bring the break into Recycle, export it as a SoundFont/MIDI pair, and then import those into Ableton's sampler. (Or if I'm ambitious about extra effects/EQs, into Reasons NNXT Sampler.) This gives me the original break sequenced as MIDI notes, and I can rearrange it through MIDI sequencing.

Both methods have frustrating flaws. (1) can use Ableton's tempo-twisting to lock a loose complex or lengthy break to the tempo, but of course prohibits any kind of complex editing or effects. (2) allows for relatively complex edits and effects, but is useless for loose, complex or lengthy breaks, because ReCycle can't twist their tempo back into synch.

So, I'm stuck either making simple edits to loose interesting breaks, or making complex edits to tight simpler breaks. This is wayy limiting and frustrating. Of course the ideal is to somehow hijack the drummer's original funkiness and swing while gracefully locking it to my own tempo, and neither of my current methods fully accomplishes this.

Post reactions / suggestions / criticisms here!

just writing this out has given me the idea to
1. tempo twist the break in ableton
2. export it to recycle for chopping
3. export it back into ableton/reason for sequencing
which is an insane process, but promising...

Just chop it up in Recycle and once its in a sampler in Ableton, you can quantize the hits that you want. It's way easier to edit when chopped and put into a sampler. I do both ways though in Ableton depending on the sample.

[Macc]

Timestretching =

can't comment unless i hear some of the music TBH

combos of chopping single hits and using a little timestretching in places to keep some groove works for me

never ever just timestretch and loop tho especially down for half time sections etc sound mingin

can also help to re edit your timestretched bits aswell slightly...just to keep them more in time

Just chop it up in Recycle and once its in a sampler in Ableton, you can quantize the hits that you want. It's way easier to edit when chopped and put into a sampler. I do both ways though in Ableton depending on the sample.

the whole point is not NOT to quantize though; to keep the original break's off-kilter rhythm intact yet flexible

Timestretching =

why? just because it hurts the drumhits' sound-quality? or do you think it effs up the rhythm too?

Just chop it up in Recycle and once its in a sampler in Ableton, you can quantize the hits that you want. It's way easier to edit when chopped and put into a sampler. I do both ways though in Ableton depending on the sample.

the whole point is not NOT to quantize though; to keep the original break's off-kilter rhythm intact yet flexible

#

in that case then try to figuire out how the original is set ...then recreate it but in the new tempo and sample the air or tales to fill in any gaps

other than that your gonna have to time stretch which may work....or mighnt just sound like someone hitting a dustbin with a rusty kettle

but if its a fairly loose samp this may still sound shitty so think its a bit of effort to work out the pattern of the original and recreate it in my opinion

Timestretching =

why? just because it hurts the drumhits' sound-quality? or do you think it effs up the rhythm too?

id say both innit

...other than that your gonna have to time stretch which may work....or mighnt just sound like someone hitting a dustbin with a rusty kettle

but if its a fairly loose samp this may still sound shitty so think its a bit of effort to work out the pattern of the original and recreate it in my opinion

actually the technique i posted above worked pretty well; it effectively quantizes on a gradient, instead of entirely grid-locking every hit.

it did hurt the drumhit audios a bit though, so what i am now thinking of trying is to use the original unstretched soundfont file (drum hit aifs) with the new timestretched midi file....

i just chop in recycle and hard quantise on the piano roll in cubase

me = cheap

[Macc]

Timestretching - and I don't give a monkey's what algorithm you use - has a number of detrimental effects on a sound.

With regard to drums, the most pertinent of these are;

1) audible artifacts, particularly in the high end
2) smearing of transients
3) it doesn't *perfectly* retain the groove. No it doesn't :P There's always a 'fudge factor' involved.

Very short and very simply, there's a trade off between time precision and sonic precision. Every time stretch algorithm has to balance these, it is unavoidable (as well as a difficult problem to try to resolve satisfactorily).


IMO if you want drums to play at different tempos, then make the drummer play the hits faster/slower, and then deal with gaps or overhangs after. This means chopping.

To say that chopping means you lose your groove/swing/feel is a nonsense

[Statto]

Timestretching has a number of detrimental effects on a sound.

Just chop it up in Recycle and once its in a sampler in Ableton, you can quantize the hits that you want. It's way easier to edit when chopped and put into a sampler. I do both ways though in Ableton depending on the sample.

the whole point is not NOT to quantize though; to keep the original break's off-kilter rhythm intact yet flexible

Time stretching in Ableton is a lazy way of quantizing, and it sounds worse. If you chop, you don't have to quantize.. It's a matter of opinion. And I said you can "quantize the hits that you want", meaning put the kick in line and have the rest of the groove follow... if you want to.

IMO if you want drums to play at different tempos, then make the drummer play the hits faster/slower, and then deal with gaps or overhangs after. This means chopping.:

get those tails snipped reversed and faded or the air sampled innit

To say that chopping means you lose your groove/swing/feel is a nonsense

if anything it improves it for me

[Macc]

statto

yeah, it is nice in the right places cubase's ruuubbish 'sizing applies time stretch' function is the worst timestretch ever

yeah, it is nice in the right places

emphasis on the right places something im beggining to learn anyway

...other than that your gonna have to time stretch which may work....or mighnt just sound like someone hitting a dustbin with a rusty kettle

but if its a fairly loose samp this may still sound shitty so think its a bit of effort to work out the pattern of the original and recreate it in my opinion

actually the technique i posted above worked pretty well; it effectively quantizes on a gradient, instead of entirely grid-locking every hit.

it did hurt the drumhit audios a bit though, so what i am now thinking of trying is to use the original unstretched soundfont file (drum hit aifs) with the new timestretched midi file....

what you mean like reconstruct with the original hits using the midi as like a plan to judge where the hits go????..............that sounds like it would work pretty well anyway

statto

yeah, it is nice in the right places cubase's ruuubbish 'sizing applies time stretch' function is the worst timestretch ever

i don't even bother with timestretch apart from on the intro for icu..but that was all mashup mega down tempo thing

[denaris]

I've never timestretched a single sample, sound or drum hit. Then again I'm shit

i used to timestretch every break because i didnt know any better but i chop everything now and it produces far far better results