Jungle vs Drum & Bass

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droid Wrote:
Marvel Cinema Wrote:To avoid all the confusion, Brian Belle-Fortune used the term "JDB" = "Jungle Drum and Bass" in his book "All Crews" (which all of you should have read by now, otherwise you should be ashamed of yourselves)...

Why? its mostly awful.

you gotta be kidding...i enjoyed every page...how can you not like the history of jungle/pirate radio etc....??? ok, the author is no shakespeare, but he mostly describes the beginnings of
the london jungle/d&b scene with a lot of comments from the original dj`s and producers, so no need for great rethoric skills
Mind over Matter. Knowledge over Money. http://www.soundcloud.com/marvelcinema
I've not read it yet but I should... then I could tell you if its accurate or not Xyxthumbs

I do have 'State Of Bass' which was pretty good, not looked at it for a while though
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InfiniteSloth Wrote:did take a day for this thread to really get rolling.

that was everyone taking a deep breath before they went in Hahaha
http://www.soundcloud.com/shift/ - SCD soundclash tune is up Drums
I have been trying to resist!

I hated the term 'jungle' at the time it came into use - predominantly because it came to denote the ragga influenced sound that was popular at the time. I was not down with that sound at all..

As most of those tunes were shite (and never get played now anyway) 'jungle' has come to mean the deep breakbeat music that was prevalent at the same time (93/94)

Drum 'n' Bass - what the fuck is up with that 'n'? That has always annoyed me. Lazy bollocks term. Stuff 'n' nonsense.
Hardcore was really the most fitting genre tag..
rondema Wrote:I have been trying to resist!

I hated the term 'jungle' at the time it came into use - predominantly because it came to denote the ragga influenced sound that was popular at the time. I was not down with that sound at all..

As most of those tunes were shite (and never get played now anyway) 'jungle' has come to mean the deep breakbeat music that was prevalent at the same time (93/94)

Drum 'n' Bass - what the fuck is up with that 'n'? That has always annoyed me. Lazy bollocks term. Stuff 'n' nonsense.
Hardcore was really the most fitting genre tag..
Ro 'n' dema.
InfiniteSloth Wrote:
Roo Stercogburn Wrote:Crap, I'm out of popcorn. Can people hold off posting any more until I get back from the shop?

Hahaha did take a day for this thread to really get rolling. i prefer to snack on hummus.


lemon and coriander.. standardly..
beats are there to be broken http://musicindevon.org/
rondema Wrote:I have been trying to resist!

I hated the term 'jungle' at the time it came into use - predominantly because it came to denote the ragga influenced sound that was popular at the time. I was not down with that sound at all..

As most of those tunes were shite (and never get played now anyway) 'jungle' has come to mean the deep breakbeat music that was prevalent at the same time (93/94)

I felt exactly the same at the time. I remember there being a flood of half-arsed attempts at 'Jungle' that were basically some prick chatting over an amen or a think break with a bassline in the background. There were compilations full of this stuff all of a sudden (from artists no one had ever heard of!). I think you're right that retrospectively the meaning of jungle changed to reflect the true sounds that are still considered classic.

My recollection is that 1992 heralded the sounds of Hardcore Jungle, 1993 evolved into Jungle Techno (which if I remember correctly also incorporated the darkcore Basement Records sound) and by 1994 it was Jungle/Drum and bass with both titles being used simultaneously, but the distinction then as I remember it was that Jungle was used more to label the ragga-based stuff as you mentioned. By 1995, there was still the ragga-Jungle sound, but the term Drum and Bass was generally splitting away completely from the Ragga stuff and eventually evolved into what we have now.

But then, that could just be my recollection of events and the old drugs have skewed my memory in umpteen ways Hahaha
Ornette Wrote:What you got to remember is that jungle started out whilst the music was still 'hardcore', and that drum & bass was an evolution of that. So jungle was always really the subset.

That doesnt really make sense.

In Jamaica they had ska>>Rocksteady>>Reggae

Ska and rocksteady are both seen as separate genres to reggae. Reggae came to encompass pretty much everything that came after.

So in the UK it goes

Rave>>Hardcore>>Jungle>>D+B

With some crossover. You can argue that jungle has (retrospectively) become a sub-genre of D+B, but that's like saying ska is a sub-genre of reggae.

Quote:The first reference to 'drum & bass' I remember seeing was in a Criminal Minds interview in 1992 in Ravescene fanzine, talking about their Re-Baptised By Dub EP

In more general it was probably the start of 1993, when the music started being labeled in Blackmarket as 'hardcore drum & bass' that I remember it getting used. The problem was what hardcore started becoming bore very little resemblence to what hardcore was originally, so it needed a new term. Noone knew where the music was going.

I think we knew drum & bass was going to be a recognisable form when tracks such as LTJ Bukem 'Demons Theme', Lemon D 'Something I Feel' & FBD Project 'The Core' started appearing - it was not just that they were amens, but something else somehow different about them...

somewhere in the latter half of 1992 the term must have taken on mutual usage, I don't know where/how. Someone else will have to answer that. An early record I have found with the term is this one http://www.rolldabeats.com/release/vice_versa/vvrrs001/. Of course, drum & bass was originally a term for reggae dubwise from the 70's, but you already mentioned that...

From '91 on we had hardcore junglism, Ibiza pushing 'jungle techno', then onto 'junglist warrior', 'Im a junglist', 'playing that bloody jungle music' etc... dozens, if not hundreds of reference in track names, compilations, interviews and in the music itself to 'jungle'. Even though some people may have been using the term D+B, the genre was pretty much known as jungle. It wasn't until '94/'95 that D+B was being used to market the music - often as an attempt to replace jungle, though we also had 'artcore' and 'intelligent jungle' attempt a counter coup in '94.

The point is that during the formative period of the genre, artists, audiences and labels all self identified with the term 'jungle'. They called themselves junglists, they used jungle on flyers and records, and sampled load of 'jungle' vocal samples. When the music was consolidated and got less unpredictable and more locked down D+B emerged as an identifying signifier, starting probably in late '94, and eliminating jungle almost completely by '96.

So, by that logic, jungle can be seen as a separate entity, a particular style of UK breakbeat, after hardcore but before D+B.

You can argue that through general usage D+B has become an all encompassing term which includes jungle, and thats fine, but it is somewhat subjective.
Marvel Cinema Wrote:
droid Wrote:
Marvel Cinema Wrote:To avoid all the confusion, Brian Belle-Fortune used the term "JDB" = "Jungle Drum and Bass" in his book "All Crews" (which all of you should have read by now, otherwise you should be ashamed of yourselves)...

Why? its mostly awful.

you gotta be kidding...i enjoyed every page...how can you not like the history of jungle/pirate radio etc....??? ok, the author is no shakespeare, but he mostly describes the beginnings of
the london jungle/d&b scene with a lot of comments from the original dj`s and producers, so no need for great rethoric skills

It wasnt the writing style, it was the revisionism. The first half was good as he was recounting his personal experiences, the second half, where he talked about the scene 'today' and pretending that the music was the same and nothing had really changed in the scene was just bizarre.
droid Wrote:That doesnt really make sense.

Ska and rocksteady are both seen as separate genres to reggae. Reggae came to encompass pretty much everything that came after.

So in the UK it goes

Rave>>Hardcore>>Jungle>>D+B

No, drum & bass was an evolution of hardcore not jungle

Ornette Wrote:The problem was what hardcore started becoming bore very little resemblence to what hardcore was originally, so it needed a new term. Noone knew where the music was going.

Hence that is why 'drum & bass' started being adopted.
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- The Lazerdrome Memorial Page -

http://www.hardscore.com/articles/lazerdrome/
Ornette Wrote:
droid Wrote:That doesnt really make sense.

Ska and rocksteady are both seen as separate genres to reggae. Reggae came to encompass pretty much everything that came after.

So in the UK it goes

Rave>>Hardcore>>Jungle>>D+B

No, drum & bass was an evolution of hardcore not jungle

Ornette Wrote:The problem was what hardcore started becoming bore very little resemblence to what hardcore was originally, so it needed a new term. Noone knew where the music was going.

Hence that is why 'drum & bass' started being adopted.

So you're just going to ignore the 3/4 years where pretty much everyone called it jungle and almost no-one called it D+B?

Tim Reaper Wrote:Ro 'n' dema.

Icon_yippee
What we have to conclude is that the term 'Jungle' as relates to the breakbeat driven stuff we all love so much has evolved over time.

Without meaning to repeat myself too much..

91/92... Jungle Techno. This was good.

93/94/95... Jungle as in heavily ragga influenced. This was not good.

Now... Jungle as in hardcore/jungle techno/dark early 90's style (and contemporary riddims in the same vein) - this is an all encompassing term for everything I love from the wider realm of DnB.

Hardcore Junglism Drums
Let me see if i can get someone to post in this thread... and give us their perspective (they were about in this earlier, 'mid' 1992 period)

Watch this space
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- The Lazerdrome Memorial Page -

http://www.hardscore.com/articles/lazerdrome/
Ornette Wrote:Let me see if i can get someone to post in this thread... and give us their perspective (they were about in this earlier, 'mid' 1992 period)


[Image: our_class_4_put_your_hand_up.jpg]

ahem
Hahaha

Ornette Wrote:Let me see if i can get someone to post in this thread... and give us their perspective (they were about in this earlier, 'mid' 1992 period)


No need, Euphony and I are right! I was in it up to my neck from late 91 to late 94...

Kisskiss
rondema Wrote:.

93/94/95... Jungle as in heavily ragga influenced. This was not good.

Yeah, RIP remix and special dedication were real low points. No

Anyway, apart from being demented thats a pretty bogus definition imo.

THIS is jungle:

Falcon
split 'n hairs
...it's like a bloody LIBRARY out there!!! http://twitter.com/executivesteve
Great thread here Xyxthumbs


Wish I could contribute but I wasnt there back in the days, but I kinda agree with the "Hardcore>>Jungle>>D+B" perspective. Also, I do love the heavy ragga jungle stuff . . . gonna keep watching this thread as I honestly cant make heads or arse of these genres sometimes lol
MetaLX Wrote:I kinda agree with the "Hardcore>>Jungle>>D+B" perspective

I would argue most people agree with this.

Droid's summary about the 'jungle' period sounds accurate to me.

droid Wrote:From '91 on we had hardcore junglism, Ibiza pushing 'jungle techno', then onto 'junglist warrior', 'Im a junglist', 'playing that bloody jungle music' etc... dozens, if not hundreds of reference in track names, compilations, interviews and in the music itself to 'jungle'. Even though some people may have been using the term D+B, the genre was pretty much known as jungle. It wasn't until '94/'95 that D+B was being used to market the music - often as an attempt to replace jungle, though we also had 'artcore' and 'intelligent jungle' attempt a counter coup in '94.

The point is that during the formative period of the genre, artists, audiences and labels all self identified with the term 'jungle'. They called themselves junglists, they used jungle on flyers and records, and sampled load of 'jungle' vocal samples. When the music was consolidated and got less unpredictable and more locked down D+B emerged as an identifying signifier, starting probably in late '94, and eliminating jungle almost completely by '96.

So, by that logic, jungle can be seen as a separate entity, a particular style of UK breakbeat, after hardcore but before D+B.

It was a widely used term during the years he mentions. It was all about 'junglists', 'jungle compilations' and 'jungle' being played at raves. The shops, records and people I interacted with rarely mentioned 'drum n bass' as that part of the evolution came later.

Having said, i'd imagine that what was going on in London's inner sanctum, and what the drum n bass/jungle cognoscenti though about it all, was perhaps slightly different to the rest of the UK. It didn't feel much different outside of London (I lived in Reading), but then I wasn't old enough for raves at that point and so my own exposure wasn't fully fledged. Sure there were magazine articles and pirates dropping buzzwords but I do think the majority of people were still in the 'jungle' mindset, certainly up until the ragga sound fizzled out.
I think the breakthrough of the ragga thing with its attendant cash-in chancers (its ok for jungle to cash in on reggae, but not ok for reggae to cash in on jungle after all), 'jungle' was appropriated in the media to signify crack dealing black men, the definition was narrowed, and, as you mention, the cognoscenti decided that they needed to separate themselves from the negative, unsophisticated image, thus the jungle council, death threats to DJ Rap, and, most effectively, the popularisation of a new name for serious and sophisticated (non-ragga) jungle - aka D+B. The legacy of this is that loads of people still think or claim that jungle=ragga, when in fact thats far from true. A touch of whitewashing going on there if you ask me.

The problem with the 'its all D+B, jungle was just a fad or a ragga thing' position is that, regardless of personal experiences ('I loved hardcore and D+B, the jungle thing was too black'*), there is a legacy of documentation of the scene in the records, the flyers, the samples, the labels. Without diminishing the worth of anyone's personal experience with the music, there's just no way around that, the evidence is embedded into the artifacts of the genre.

* Actual quote from a well meaning old raver I bought some tunes off once

As an aside, reggae wasn't such a big fan of the jungle sound either. Bunch of drug taking jokers, nicking bits of our culture with no regard or respect for tradition...

Hype wanted to call it 'UK Breakbeat' around '94 - I remember using that as as a descriptive term on a poster advertising the radio show I was doing. Smile

tbh I wouldn't get too hung up on the chronology. Broadly speaking, Jungle edged out Hardcore - and then DnB edged out Jungle. But it's easier to talk about how these phases came to an end than about how they actually originated, because there was so much overlap during the inception of each phase.

The Ibiza cru really played up the Junglist tag but it's important to remember that there were lots of people into Hardcore who had always viewed it through a Belgium/Detroit/Berlin filter - as basically a form of breakbeat techno. Reggae b-lines, clash samples, and an obvious emphasis on weed over E tuned a lot of people off Jungle - and that's just the musical side of it. Socially, Jungle was perceived by many as nothing more than opportunistic rudeboys crashing the Rave party and taking over 'our music'.

I can say that in only one way was I fortunate during those years - because I didn't live in the UK, I wasn't alienated by any of the social ramifications of the scene as it changed - thus I could pick and choose the music I liked, regardless of whether it was more 'jungle' or 'dnb' or whatever.

With my purist hat on, I thought the the term 'drum n bass' had became seriously devalued from the late 1990s on tbh - or even by 1997. But then again, the same thing happened with 'Jungle' - where it had became a sorry money spinnning gimmick by Summer 1995. And of course 'Hardcore' itself had been prostituted before both of them.

At the end of the day, pick the name that best represents the stuff you like. Appealing to the Court of History to resolve it all is a waste of time - everyone came here by different routes - all equally 'valid'.


PS Belle Fortune's books is a pretty shit IMO. 'Energy Flash' does Hardcore/Jungle much better. Smile
Keep JUMPin ya Bastids
Naphta's assessment is the most accurate I've read so far.
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http://www.hardscore.com/articles/lazerdrome/
Ornette Wrote:Naphta's assessment is the most accurate I've read so far.

But you do realize he's essentially contradicting you? Lol

Quote:At the end of the day, pick the name that best represents the stuff you like. Appealing to the Court of History to resolve it all is a waste of time - everyone came here by different routes - all equally 'valid'.

Well yeah, that's the subtext of any discussion about genre in almost any field - but yet, some terms get appropriated, recontextualised and twisted - just look at what happened to 'dubstep'.

There is still a core of objective history and shared experience to refer to. I can claim that everyone round my way called it 'speedbass', and by golly, thats what Im gonna call it until the day I die, and thats perfectly valid, but also a bit mad.

Quote:I can say that in only one way was I fortunate during those years - because I didn't live in the UK, I wasn't alienated by any of the social ramifications of the scene as it changed - thus I could pick and choose the music I liked, regardless of whether it was more 'jungle' or 'dnb' or whatever.

Xyxthumbs Yep. Often those who were there cant see the wood for the trees, and those who were outside cant see the trees for the wood.

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